On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 19:57 Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org
> <cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote:
> > Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
> >> mailing list?
> >
> > Good point.  [ ... ]  Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret.  ;)
>
> Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes.
> >
> > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
> > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts.  Imagine if,
> > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
> > over 9P.  The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
> > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.
> >
> I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a
> glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler
> DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm
> not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes
> all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be
> possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep,
> enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or
> Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done
> with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of
> Information.
>
> [ ... ]
> > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
> > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.
> >
> Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote
> "scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the
> local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close
> to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of
> hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to
> comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to


Let's not overemphasize sapir-whorf. Many folks taught primarily in English
find modern science impossible to understand. And SW ends up being a vector
for beguiled racism.

--dho


> stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional,
> definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to
> English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that
> used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have
> to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the
> colonising Brits for beating the French.
>
> Twists and turns, indeed.
>
> > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
> > C.
> >
> Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially
> successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially
> successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's
> success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the
> key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and
> C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm,
> more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head.
> Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction
> set as long as possible.
> 
> It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much
> rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving"
> the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds
> of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce
> (simplistically, of course).
> 
> Lucio.
> 
> PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will
> be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there.

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