From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8BA869F5-072A-4D72-9F65-C0D404E737A3@mailroute.net> In-Reply-To: From: "Devon H. O'Dell" Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 10:20:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c0d0e058fb266f1" Subject: Re: [9fans] MailRoute: Past Due Invoice for 9fans.net Topicbox-Message-UUID: 03c39962-eada-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0000000000002c0d0e058fb266f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TL;DR: hosted lists aren=E2=80=99t really a thing anymore and anyone doing = it is unlikely to do a good job at it. I used to work for an email service / software provider and recently asked some contacts there about this (hosted lists) sort of thing. It's really not so much that it's not a cool thing anymore so much as marketing and transactional messages are the only ways to make money sending email. My former colleagues said that everyone has gotten out of the list hosting business because they can=E2=80=99t find a billing model that works. Overhead in list management is pretty high for a few reasons. One is that people who want easy-mode lists often tend to have high support costs. The service also tends to get abused by spammers (who are happy to pay a pittance to force-subscribe people to a list and blast out messages), which is hugely expensive for ESPs. This is expensive because you can't colocate lists in IPv4 space (otherwise spammer and good sender behind the same IP results in good sender failing to deliver messages when the IP gets added to a DNSBL). IPv6 space with poor reputation on just a few addresses tends to have the entire allocation blocked. Because of this, to run such a service, you need to charge fees that aren't really commensurate with the service provided just to handle the support cost for easy-mode folks, support cost for folks wondering why their list suddenly no longer gets delivered to gmail users, costs associated with acquiring additional address space, and costs associated with spending time to validate your customers are acting in good faith. Barring some sudden advance in deliverability/reputation management, I don=E2=80=99t think that reputable companies who can do a good job delivering messages are going back to list hosting. I've thought about making an improved list management system for self-hosting, but a combination of having already been scarred by worked in email for half a decade and ENOTIME have impeded that. If anyone else is interested, I could probably be convinced to spend some cycles to help. --dho On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 07:29 Russ Cox wrote: > [-mailroute] > > Sorry about the spam to 9fans everyone. Not sure what made them think > to add 9fans to try to contact me, and I didn't notice it was CC'ed at > first. > > Running the list through mailroute has been really great for spam > reduction. I'd still really love to move 9fans itself to a proper > mailing list hosting place that would do the full package of list > management and spam rejection, but those don't seem to exist anymore > other than Google Groups, and the last time I checked, it wasn't clear > I could make a public group on a custom domain there. > > Mailing lists are not the cool thing anymore, I guess. So we muddle on > with mailroute and self-hosted mailman. Would be happy to hear about > alternatives, though. > > Best, > Russ > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:00 PM Skip Tavakkolian > wrote: > > > > Anti-Spam-as-a-Service or ASaaS > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 2:03 PM Russ Cox wrote: > >> > >> Hi Christiane, > >> > >> I received your voicemail and just updated my credit card information > >> at billing.mailroute.net. Apologies for not noticing these emails > >> earlier. I've updated my mail filters to highlight them better. > >> > >> Please let me know if you need anything more from me. > >> > >> Best, > >> Russ > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 4:42 PM Christiane Howard > wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Russ, > >> > > >> > Please confirm receipt of this email. > >> > We haven=E2=80=99t received payment for anti-spam services provided = to > 9fans.net. > >> > I have attached the invoice which was also sent via intuit.com > (please whitelist intuit.com if you are not receiving them and/or check > your junk folder). > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We offer 4 ways to pay: > >> > > >> > 1) This only works if you received the invoice via intuit.com. > >> > Quick Pay: Click on 'View Invoice' then 'Pay Now' to enter payment > information (credit card or echeck) and keep it on file for fast recurrin= g > payments controlled by you. *Note: Allow (whitelist) intuit.com to ensure > delivery of invoices and payment receipts; or > >> > > >> > 2) Credit Card Payment: https://billing.mailroute.net (for recurring > monthly and annual payments applied by MailRoute). > >> > > >> > 3) Check: Remittance address is at the top of invoice > >> > > >> > 4) ACH/Wire; > >> > Bank name: Mailroute, Inc. c/o Wells Fargo Bank, N.A. > >> > ABA routing # 122000247 > >> > Account # 6301195175 > >> > International SWIFT BIC: WFBIUS6S > >> > ***Please Note: MailRoute does not cover wire transfer fees. > >> > > >> > Thank you for choosing MailRoute. We appreciate your business. > >> > > >> > Christiane Howard > >> > MailRoute Billing Department > >> > 888-485-7726, Option 3 > >> > billing@mailroute.net > >> > > --0000000000002c0d0e058fb266f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TL;DR: hosted lists aren=E2=80=99t = really a thing anymore and anyone doing it is unlikely to do a good job at = it.

I used to work for a= n email service / software provider and recently asked some contacts there = about this (hosted lists) sort of thing. It's really not so much that i= t's not a cool thing anymore so much as marketing and transactional mes= sages are the only ways to make money sending email. My former colleagues s= aid that everyone has gotten out of the list hosting business because they = can=E2=80=99t find a billing model that works.

<= /div>
Overhead in list management is pretty high for a few= reasons. One is that people who want easy-mode lists often tend to have hi= gh support costs. The service also tends to get abused by spammers (who are= happy to pay a pittance to force-subscribe people to a list and blast out = messages), which is hugely expensive for ESPs. This is expensive because yo= u can't colocate lists in IPv4 space (otherwise spammer and good sender= behind the same IP results in good sender failing to deliver messages when= the IP gets added to a DNSBL). IPv6 space with poor reputation on just a f= ew addresses tends to have the entire allocation blocked.=C2=A0

Because of this, to run such a serv= ice, you need to charge fees that aren't really commensurate with the s= ervice provided just to handle the support cost for easy-mode folks, suppor= t cost for folks wondering why their list suddenly no longer gets delivered= to gmail users, costs associated with acquiring additional address space, = and costs associated with spending time to validate your customers are acti= ng in good faith. Barring some sudden advance in deliverability/reputation = management, I don=E2=80=99t think that reputable companies who can do a goo= d job delivering messages are going back to list hosting.

I've thought about making an improved list m= anagement system for self-hosting, but a combination of having already been= scarred by worked in email for half a decade and ENOTIME have impeded that= . If anyone else is interested, I could probably be convinced to spend some= cycles to help.

--dho

On F= ri, Aug 9, 2019 at 07:29 Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
[-mailroute]

Sorry about the spam to 9fans everyone. Not sure what made them think
to add 9fans to try to contact me, and I didn't notice it was CC'ed= at
first.

Running the list through mailroute has been really great for spam
reduction. I'd still really love to move 9fans itself to a proper
mailing list hosting place that would do the full package of list
management and spam rejection, but those don't seem to exist anymore other than Google Groups, and the last time I checked, it wasn't clear<= br> I could make a public group on a custom domain there.

Mailing lists are not the cool thing anymore, I guess. So we muddle on
with mailroute and self-hosted mailman. Would be happy to hear about
alternatives, though.

Best,
Russ

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:00 PM Skip Tavakkolian
<skip.ta= vakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anti-Spam-as-a-Service or ASaaS
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 2:03 PM Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christiane,
>>
>> I received your voicemail and just updated my credit card informat= ion
>> at billing.mailroute.net. Apologies for not noticing these = emails
>> earlier. I've updated my mail filters to highlight them better= .
>>
>> Please let me know if you need anything more from me.
>>
>> Best,
>> Russ
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 4:42 PM Christiane Howard <xian@mailroute.net> wrote= :
>> >
>> > Hi Russ,
>> >
>> > Please confirm receipt of this email.
>> > We haven=E2=80=99t received payment for anti-spam services pr= ovided to 9fans.net.
>> > I have attached the invoice which was also sent via intuit.com = (please whitelist intuit.com if you are not receiving them and/or check your = junk folder).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We offer 4 ways to pay:
>> >
>> > 1) This only works if you received the invoice via intuit.com. >> > Quick Pay: Click on 'View Invoice' then 'Pay Now&= #39; to enter payment information (credit card or echeck) and keep it on fi= le for fast recurring payments controlled by you. *Note: Allow (whitelist) = intuit.c= om to ensure delivery of invoices and payment receipts; or
>> >
>> > 2) Credit Card Payment: https://billing.mailroute.net= (for recurring monthly and annual payments applied by MailRoute).
>> >
>> > 3) Check: Remittance address is at the top of invoice
>> >
>> > 4) ACH/Wire;
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bank name: Mailroute, Inc. c/o Wells Fargo= Bank, N.A.
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ABA routing # 122000247
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Account # 6301195175
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0International SWIFT BIC: WFBIUS6S
>> > ***Please Note: MailRoute does not cover wire transfer fees.<= br> >> >
>> > Thank you for choosing MailRoute. We appreciate your business= .
>> >
>> > Christiane Howard
>> > MailRoute Billing Department
>> > 888-485-7726, Option 3
>> > bi= lling@mailroute.net
>>

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