From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9A3455DB-8B65-46B3-9F57-6E98639392CB@me.com> From: Winston Kodogo Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 13:52:16 +1200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c191f828bde9a053b7c944b Subject: Re: [9fans] Musings on Interfaces Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9b4897e8-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --94eb2c191f828bde9a053b7c944b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What I mean is, all I want to do (tm pjp) is to open a new file by selecting File/Open, as in every other application I use, not type a series of arcane commands into the small window at the top.And then use the Sam command language in the open file. And yes, I'm whining, and yes I have the source. Where is Boyd to threaten you with assault weapons when you need him? On 2 September 2016 at 10:56, Winston Kodogo wrote: > Thanks to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love many things > about Sam, but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. The structural > regular expression stuff is a work of genius, but I still find, such are = my > limitations, that the user interface is just too clunky and retro. > > On 2 September 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile wrote= : > >> I think I=E2=80=99ve been a member of 9fans for its entire history. The = earliest >> saved 9fans email in my /mail/box/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the tim= e I >> have not said much. Given that the list isn=E2=80=99t very busy these da= ys, and >> that I=E2=80=99m doing a lot of thinking about Plan 9, I thought I would= post some >> of my seemingly random musings. >> >> Today I=E2=80=99m thinking about Plan 9=E2=80=99s interfaces. >> >> The reason for thinking about those is that I=E2=80=99ve just switch bac= k to >> sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change = is >> as good as a rest. I=E2=80=99ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six day= s a week >> lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme. I=E2= =80=99ve >> been using it for many years and it is a great tool. >> >> The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office i= n >> Redwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the >> effect that =E2=80=9Cyou are one of those.=E2=80=9D He uses sam as do ma= ny of the folks who >> created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I had did a po= ll >> years ago but can=E2=80=99t seem to find the results. As did I for many = years, even >> after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a version of it working on = my >> Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the samterm and all. It >> was the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure at Bell Labs in >> 1990. Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Winterbottom and h= is >> Alef language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like rio(1) withou= t >> the bumpers one can use to move and resize the window. >> >> I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did >> have modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not = to >> do acme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that >> part of the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a >> shell variable that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconsci= ous >> chording stopped. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other wa= y around. >> Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And that >> difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use acme= , I >> mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It becom= es >> a kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like sed >> and awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using >> acme. I had a similar thing happen when in the 1980=E2=80=99s I dropped = vi for ed. >> I used ed until the 1990=E2=80=99s when I was able to switch to sam full= time. >> >> But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it >> and acme. >> >> In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window >> rather than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command >> language in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feel= s >> different. There is something to be said for the convenience of the comm= and >> windows in sam. >> >> If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the tim= e >> it took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while >> working. Our tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took ab= out >> a week to switch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a functio= n >> of how much I used sam in the past. >> >> I=E2=80=99m very grateful to still be using these tools. It=E2=80=99s a = very personal >> thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and the old >> shell, and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, bot= h >> acme and sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded th= em >> and followed them. >> >> Brantley Coile >> >> >> > --94eb2c191f828bde9a053b7c944b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What I mean is, all I want to do (tm pjp) is to open a new= file by selecting File/Open, as in every other application I use, not type= a series of arcane commands into the small window at the top.And then use = the Sam command language in the open file. And yes, I'm whining, and ye= s I have the source. Where is Boyd to threaten you with assault weapons whe= n you need him?

On 2 September 2016 at 10:56, Winston Kodogo <= kodogo@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Thanks= to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love many things about Sam, = but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. The structural regular e= xpression stuff is a work of genius, but I still find, such are my limitati= ons, that the user interface is just too clunky and retro.

On 2 September 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile <brantley= coile@me.com> wrote:
I thin= k I=E2=80=99ve been a member of 9fans for its entire history. The earliest = saved 9fans email in my /mail/box/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the time I= have not said much. Given that the list isn=E2=80=99t very busy these days= , and that I=E2=80=99m doing a lot of thinking about Plan 9, I thought I wo= uld post some of my seemingly random musings.

Today I=E2=80=99m thinking about Plan 9=E2=80=99s interfaces.

The reason for thinking about those is that I=E2=80=99ve just switch back t= o sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change i= s as good as a rest. I=E2=80=99ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six days= a week lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme.= I=E2=80=99ve been using it for many years and it is a great tool.

The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office in R= edwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the eff= ect that =E2=80=9Cyou are one of those.=E2=80=9D He uses sam as do many of = the folks who created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I h= ad did a poll years ago but can=E2=80=99t seem to find the results. As did = I for many years, even after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a versi= on of it working on my Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the= samterm and all. It was the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure= at Bell Labs in 1990. Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Wint= erbottom and his Alef language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like= rio(1) without the bumpers one can use to move and resize the window.

I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did ha= ve modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not to do= acme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that part= of the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a shell v= ariable that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconscious chordi= ng stopped.

I don=E2=80=99t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other way a= round. Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And = that difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use ac= me, I mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It be= comes a kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like = sed and awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using= acme. I had a similar thing happen when in the 1980=E2=80=99s I dropped vi= for ed. I used ed until the 1990=E2=80=99s when I was able to switch to sa= m full time.

But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it and= acme.

In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window ra= ther than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command langu= age in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feels differ= ent. There is something to be said for the convenience of the command windo= ws in sam.

If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the time i= t took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while working= . Our tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took about a week= to switch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a function of how = much I used sam in the past.

I=E2=80=99m very grateful to still be using these tools. It=E2=80=99s a ver= y personal thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and th= e old shell, and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, = both acme and sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded = them and followed them.

=C2=A0 Brantley Coile




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