From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> From: Darren Wise Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 10:58:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3407B6E6AA3313B8128B0473" Subject: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f9560b22-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3407B6E6AA3313B8128B0473 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks, I rarely post in-fact maybe my second ever, I was wondering if anyone else or a group of us could work towards some window manager UI modifications to appear more attractive in some form from the current interface appearing in comparison to dwm(on other Nix forks) to a more usable friendly interface like gnome, KDE and the like. I'm just throwing the idea about really, I've not had much time at all with Plan9 but from just my bare basic usage I can already see a great future for Plan9 as a whole. As I say what with commitments currently the last few years I could be way out of my depth and experience even mentioning this and don't mind getting flamed a little. From my point of view and limited knowledge, usage even though very streamlined, simple and very fast indeed it can become daunting for new users to adopt, it's not off-putting just a little daunting and seems somewhat inflexible to begin with. I'm sure it would attract a much wider community with a few simple UI modifications and I'd like to hear what others think about the subject in general. *Maybe I should read and research more, either way I don't mean or wish to offend anyone mentioning the above, even this post in some form might jump start someone else or a group to just go ahead or have had thoughts of the same previously.. Who know eh, it's Plan9. -- WISECORP Darren Wise eMail: darren@wisecorp.co.uk www: https://wisecorp.co.uk --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com --------------3407B6E6AA3313B8128B0473 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey folks,

I rarely post in-fact maybe my second ever, I was wondering if anyone else or a group of us could work towards some window manager UI modifications to appear more attractive in some form from the current interface appearing in comparison to dwm(on other Nix forks) to a more usable friendly interface like gnome, KDE and the like.

I'm just throwing the idea about really, I've not had much time at all with Plan9 but from just my bare basic usage I can already see a great future for Plan9 as a whole. As I say what with commitments currently the last few years I could be way out of my depth and experience even mentioning this and don't mind getting flamed a little.

From my point of view and limited knowledge, usage even though very streamlined, simple and very fast indeed it can become daunting for new users to adopt, it's not off-putting just a little daunting and seems somewhat inflexible to begin with. I'm sure it would attract a much wider community with a few simple UI modifications and I'd like to hear what others think about the subject in general.

*Maybe I should read and research more, either way I don't mean or wish to offend anyone mentioning the above, even this post in some form might jump start someone else or a group to just go ahead or have had thoughts of the same previously.. Who know eh, it's Plan9.

Darren Wise

eMail: darren@wisecorp.co.uk

www: https://wisecorp.co.uk

Virus-free. www.avg.com

--------------3407B6E6AA3313B8128B0473-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-332-g22ddc6a-fmstable-20190412v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <26ef0e5c-4ae3-4e1a-9437-11dcfde32851@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 07:30:24 -0400 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans@9fans.net Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f95fe764-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 No offense taken, but just to note: I found Plan 9 very refreshing and very useful as it is. It was a relief after the massive noise and clumsiness of traditional GUI, and the different but still irritating inherent clumsiness and bugginess of terminal emulation. That's not to say Plan 9 is without irritants, but it's the least irritating window system I've ever used. You know, I'm *sure* that any goodness in today's GUIs is not the result of the paradigm but rather a good deal of care and sense, requiring considerable time and education, respectively. The paradigm helps by standardising a few aspects of interaction, but you can't just apply it to programs and expect good results. It arguably has too few standards and too many features. Far too many programs end up with nonsense like Celestia, where View Options is not under View but under the adjacent Render menu. I often want View Options to toggle certain markers, choosing between orienting the view and taking in the scene, but it's too out of the way; it doesn't have a shortcut because the author didn't imagine my use case. The item browsers which I want even more often don't have keybindings either, which is astonishing! Other options are hidden under sub-menus; immensely fiddly things that they are. The goodness in Plan 9's interfaces comes largely from a desire not to implement too much. Instead, many of them are programmable. Despite this, there are still major faults. For instance, Acme's own window system is intrusive unless you follow a very specific workflow which was designed for programming only, and doesn't even seem to work for all programmers. Sam's dual clipboards are seriously intrusive for anyone who deals with a lot of snippets of text inside and outside the editor. (I've finally started using Sam now my usage is different, but for the entirety of my actual Plan 9 use it was just too painful.) Besides, why would we want to attract people who are put off by superficial differences when the differences go all the way down? And, if I remember right, many Linux-lovers have bigger problems with those deeper issues than they do with the window system. Those who can accept good-but-different internal design can and do accept different interface design. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:19:46 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f96a1086-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > wondering if anyone else or a group of us could work towards no, you! From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> From: Lucio De Re Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 07:07:09 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f96fcef4-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image. We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem, specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis underfoot? Good luck! Lucio. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.8\)) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 23:12:50 -0700 References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f978e23c-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form. Da Vinci on the other hand.... > On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re wrote: > > The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes > and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble > slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image. > > We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors > in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a > near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem, > specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis > underfoot? > > Good luck! > > Lucio. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Devine Lu Linvega Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 15:25:15 +0900 References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f986922e-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Michelangelo would have been =E2=80=9Cmiddle-click!? Hell no=E2=80=9D. > On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: >=20 > Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form. >=20 > Da Vinci on the other hand.... >=20 >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re = wrote: >>=20 >> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes >> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble >> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image. >>=20 >> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors >> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a >> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem, >> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis >> underfoot? >>=20 >> Good luck! >>=20 >> Lucio. >>=20 >=20 >=20 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

In-Reply-To: From: Michael Misch Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 00:41:35 -0600 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004ba59605868bf213" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: f98c5998-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0000000000004ba59605868bf213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any capacity it all falls apart quickly. it's such a simple system though it wouldn't take much work to extend support wherever needed. On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 12:26 a.m. Devine Lu Linvega, wrote: > Michelangelo would have been =E2=80=9Cmiddle-click!? Hell no=E2=80=9D. > > > On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form. > > > > Da Vinci on the other hand.... > > > >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re wrote= : > >> > >> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes > >> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble > >> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image. > >> > >> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors > >> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a > >> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem, > >> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis > >> underfoot? > >> > >> Good luck! > >> > >> Lucio. > >> > > > > > > > --0000000000004ba59605868bf213 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design = works, very well; for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled pe= ople in any capacity it all falls apart quickly. it's such a simple sys= tem though it wouldn't take much work to extend support wherever needed= .

On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 12:26 a.m. Devine Lu Linvega, <aliceffekt@gmail.com> wrote:

Michelangelo would have been =E2=80=9Cmiddle-click= !? Hell no=E2=80=9D.

> On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com&g= t; wrote:
>
> Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only fo= rm.
>
> Da Vinci on the other hand....
>
>> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>>
>> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal taste= s
>> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a = marble
>> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image.
>>
>> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sc= ulptors
>> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a=
>> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem= ,
>> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis=
>> underfoot?
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Lucio.
>>
>
>

--0000000000004ba59605868bf213-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.8\)) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 00:24:44 -0700 References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa1299f4-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 What I meant to say is you can't apply aesthetics of art to UI as the latter has a functional purpose. And we don't have to wait for a Michelangelo to design a perfect UI! In other words, I don't think a UI discussion would be fruitless. Not to replicate KDE/Gnome etc. but to find other alternatives that feel more in tune with plan9. > On Apr 14, 2019, at 11:41 PM, Michael Misch = wrote: >=20 > The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; = for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any = capacity it all falls apart quickly. it's such a simple system though it = wouldn't take much work to extend support wherever needed. >=20 > On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 12:26 a.m. Devine Lu Linvega, = wrote: > Michelangelo would have been =E2=80=9Cmiddle-click!? Hell no=E2=80=9D. >=20 > > On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > >=20 > > Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only = form. > >=20 > > Da Vinci on the other hand.... > >=20 > >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re = wrote: > >>=20 > >> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes > >> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a = marble > >> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image. > >>=20 > >> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek = sculptors > >> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a > >> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem, > >> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis > >> underfoot? > >>=20 > >> Good luck! > >>=20 > >> Lucio. > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:20:50 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa1f01d0-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 the only art in window management is how they manage to sustain so much inconsistency From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 07:27:25 -0700 From: Kurt H Maier To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20190415142725.GA85928@wopr> References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa248f42-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:24:44AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > And we don't have to wait for a Michelangelo to design a perfect UI! Of course not. We already have Mike Okuda. khm From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: From: Chris McGee Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 11:10:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008215c00586930ca2" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa2a2c86-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0000000000008215c00586930ca2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Darren, Your goal seem to be to make the system less daunting for new users. I think there are a number of ways to accomplish this. Dressing up the UI and/or making it more like popular used interfaces might be one way to make new users feel more comfortable. One concern with doing this is that it allows them to come with other assumptions that may confusions about how the underlying system works. This effort could also increase complexity and size of the core system. Simplicity, size and consistency are aspects of Plan 9 that I really value. Otherwise, I might as well just use BSD or even Linux. In my experience one of the biggest hurdles to getting curious new users to give Plan 9 a try is just getting access to a namespace so that they can give it a try and learn. I think that the quickest path at the moment is to install it onto a VM like qemu (or yuck, virtualbox) since you can bypass the whole hardware selection and compatibility pain points. I put some YouTube videos up showing people step-by-step with a decent number of views and comments, so I think this helped some people just to get their hands on it. There are more ideas that I'm playing with to help people get started, such as building a website where you can get a drawterm in your web browser and give it a try. Once a new user has access to the system there could be some exercises and tutorials to engage them. There could be a variety of these depending on the background, whether programmer, Linux user, librarian, whatever. The key in my opinion is to not hide the core system with layer after layer of "pretty" GUI's, but instead reveal it gradually with decent explanations. I think that the core of Plan 9 is much easier to explain than other systems because of its smaller size, relatively consistent interfaces and versatility. Once you grasp one area it is much easier to begin grasping more of it using the skills you already have. I can't say the same thing about Linux or any other system that I have used. Like any tool, there is some required learning and practice. Good tools amplify your learning as you practice with it. Once someone understands how Plan 9 works then I think they will have many of the tools that they need to build their own networks with it. I recommend digging into man pages and /sys/doc at this stage. There's a wealth of well written guides in there, although some could be made a bit more current. A guide on how to build a home network using raspberry pi terminals and a CPU/file server from easy to acquire, but well designed, modern hardware would be a welcome addition. The system is far from perfect as others will tell you but there's advances and fixes happening steadily. I'm just not sure if focusing on the initial user experience through UI look and feel is adding much. I think a more general discussion of GUI capabilities, such as video and 3D graphics capabilities, would be great, but more in the context of what kinds of tasks people want to accomplish. The trick is to fit those improvements into the rest of the system and not just jamming them in. Cheers, Chris --0000000000008215c00586930ca2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Darren,

Yo= ur goal seem to be to make the system less daunting for new users. I think = there are a number of ways to accomplish this.

Dre= ssing up the UI and/or making it more like popular used interfaces might be= one way to make new users feel more comfortable. One concern with doing th= is is that it allows them to come with other assumptions that may confusion= s about how the underlying system works. This effort could also increase co= mplexity and size of the core system. Simplicity, size and consistency are = aspects of Plan 9 that I really value. Otherwise, I might as well just use = BSD or even Linux.

In my experience one of the= biggest hurdles to getting curious new users to give Plan 9 a try is just = getting access to a namespace so that they can give it a try and learn. I t= hink that the quickest path at the moment is to install it onto a VM like q= emu (or yuck, virtualbox) since you can bypass the whole hardware selection= and compatibility pain points. I put some YouTube videos up showing people= step-by-step with a decent number of views and comments, so I think this h= elped some people just to get their hands on it. There are more ideas that = I'm playing with to help people get started, such as building a website= where you can get a drawterm in your web browser and give it a try.

Once a new user has access to the system there could= be some exercises and tutorials to engage them. There could be a variety o= f these depending on the background, whether programmer, Linux user, librar= ian, whatever. The key in my opinion is to not hide the core system with la= yer after layer of "pretty" GUI's, but instead reveal it grad= ually with decent explanations. I think that the core of Plan 9 is much eas= ier to explain than other systems because of its smaller size, relatively c= onsistent interfaces and versatility. Once you grasp one area it is much ea= sier to begin grasping more of it using the skills you already have. I can&= #39;t say the same thing about Linux or any other system that I have used. = Like any tool, there is some required learning and practice. Good tools amp= lify your learning as you practice with it.

On= ce someone understands how Plan 9 works then I think they will have many of= the tools that they need to build their own networks with it. I recommend = digging into man pages and /sys/doc at this stage. There's a wealth of = well written guides in there, although some could be made a bit more curren= t. A guide on how to build a home network using raspberry pi terminals and = a CPU/file server from easy to acquire, but well designed, modern hardware = would be a welcome addition.

The system is far= from perfect as others will tell you but there's advances and fixes ha= ppening steadily. I'm just not sure if focusing on the initial user exp= erience through UI look and feel is adding much. I think a more general dis= cussion of GUI capabilities, such as video and 3D graphics capabilities, wo= uld be great, but more in the context of what kinds of tasks people want to= accomplish. The trick is to fit those improvements into the rest of the sy= stem and not just jamming them in.

Cheers,

Chris

--0000000000008215c00586930ca2-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> From: Darren Wise Message-ID: <3db2d59c-6bc0-b46f-fa6d-98e8bf291b7d@wisecorp.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:44:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------415E8C92BB239A8231BA0B16" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa300a7a-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------415E8C92BB239A8231BA0B16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heya folks, Thanks very much for the replies so far, I'm still reading them as they come in and when the flutter has calmed down a little I'll then start to reply. I'm just letting you know I am listening and reading and not being ignorant firing off some random eMail and then doing-one elsewhere :D Some very high quality responses so far, good giggles as well! Awesome insights considering my level of Plan9 usage and knowledge at this stage. Awesome stuff! On 15/04/2019 16:10, Chris McGee wrote: > > Hi Darren, > > Your goal seem to be to make the system less daunting for new users. I > think there are a number of ways to accomplish this. > > Dressing up the UI and/or making it more like popular used interfaces > might be one way to make new users feel more comfortable. One concern > with doing this is that it allows them to come with other assumptions > that may confusions about how the underlying system works. This effort > could also increase complexity and size of the core system. > Simplicity, size and consistency are aspects of Plan 9 that I really > value. Otherwise, I might as well just use BSD or even Linux. > > In my experience one of the biggest hurdles to getting curious new > users to give Plan 9 a try is just getting access to a namespace so > that they can give it a try and learn. I think that the quickest path > at the moment is to install it onto a VM like qemu (or yuck, > virtualbox) since you can bypass the whole hardware selection and > compatibility pain points. I put some YouTube videos up showing people > step-by-step with a decent number of views and comments, so I think > this helped some people just to get their hands on it. There are more > ideas that I'm playing with to help people get started, such as > building a website where you can get a drawterm in your web browser > and give it a try. > > Once a new user has access to the system there could be some exercises > and tutorials to engage them. There could be a variety of these > depending on the background, whether programmer, Linux user, > librarian, whatever. The key in my opinion is to not hide the core > system with layer after layer of "pretty" GUI's, but instead reveal it > gradually with decent explanations. I think that the core of Plan 9 is > much easier to explain than other systems because of its smaller size, > relatively consistent interfaces and versatility. Once you grasp one > area it is much easier to begin grasping more of it using the skills > you already have. I can't say the same thing about Linux or any other > system that I have used. Like any tool, there is some required > learning and practice. Good tools amplify your learning as you > practice with it. > > Once someone understands how Plan 9 works then I think they will have > many of the tools that they need to build their own networks with it. > I recommend digging into man pages and /sys/doc at this stage. There's > a wealth of well written guides in there, although some could be made > a bit more current. A guide on how to build a home network using > raspberry pi terminals and a CPU/file server from easy to acquire, but > well designed, modern hardware would be a welcome addition. > > The system is far from perfect as others will tell you but there's > advances and fixes happening steadily. I'm just not sure if focusing > on the initial user experience through UI look and feel is adding > much. I think a more general discussion of GUI capabilities, such as > video and 3D graphics capabilities, would be great, but more in the > context of what kinds of tasks people want to accomplish. The trick is > to fit those improvements into the rest of the system and not just > jamming them in. > > Cheers, > Chris -- WISECORP Darren Wise eMail: darren@wisecorp.co.uk www: https://wisecorp.co.uk The company [ WISECORP ] accepts no liability for the content of this email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, unless that information is subsequently confirmed in handwriting. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com --------------415E8C92BB239A8231BA0B16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Heya folks,

Thanks very much for the replies so far, I'm still reading them as they come in and when the flutter has calmed down a little I'll then start to reply. I'm just letting you know I am listening and reading and not being ignorant firing off some random eMail and then doing-one elsewhere :D

Some very high quality responses so far, good giggles as well! Awesome insights considering my level of Plan9 usage and knowledge at this stage.

Awesome stuff!

On 15/04/2019 16:10, Chris McGee wrote:

Hi Darren,

Your goal seem to be to make the system less daunting for new users. I think there are a number of ways to accomplish this.

Dressing up the UI and/or making it more like popular used interfaces might be one way to make new users feel more comfortable. One concern with doing this is that it allows them to come with other assumptions that may confusions about how the underlying system works. This effort could also increase complexity and size of the core system. Simplicity, size and consistency are aspects of Plan 9 that I really value. Otherwise, I might as well just use BSD or even Linux.

In my experience one of the biggest hurdles to getting curious new users to give Plan 9 a try is just getting access to a namespace so that they can give it a try and learn. I think that the quickest path at the moment is to install it onto a VM like qemu (or yuck, virtualbox) since you can bypass the whole hardware selection and compatibility pain points. I put some YouTube videos up showing people step-by-step with a decent number of views and comments, so I think this helped some people just to get their hands on it. There are more ideas that I'm playing with to help people get started, such as building a website where you can get a drawterm in your web browser and give it a try.

Once a new user has access to the system there could be some exercises and tutorials to engage them. There could be a variety of these depending on the background, whether programmer, Linux user, librarian, whatever. The key in my opinion is to not hide the core system with layer after layer of "pretty" GUI's, but instead reveal it gradually with decent explanations. I think that the core of Plan 9 is much easier to explain than other systems because of its smaller size, relatively consistent interfaces and versatility. Once you grasp one area it is much easier to begin grasping more of it using the skills you already have. I can't say the same thing about Linux or any other system that I have used. Like any tool, there is some required learning and practice. Good tools amplify your learning as you practice with it.

Once someone understands how Plan 9 works then I think they will have many of the tools that they need to build their own networks with it. I recommend digging into man pages and /sys/doc at this stage. There's a wealth of well written guides in there, although some could be made a bit more current. A guide on how to build a home network using raspberry pi terminals and a CPU/file server from easy to acquire, but well designed, modern hardware would be a welcome addition.

The system is far from perfect as others will tell you but there's advances and fixes happening steadily. I'm just not sure if focusing on the initial user experience through UI look and feel is adding much. I think a more general discussion of GUI capabilities, such as video and 3D graphics capabilities, would be great, but more in the context of what kinds of tasks people want to accomplish. The trick is to fit those improvements into the rest of the system and not just jamming them in.

Cheers,

Chris

Darren Wise

eMail: darren@wisecorp.co.uk

www: https://wisecorp.co.uk

The company [ WISECORP ] accepts no liability for the content of this email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, unless that information is subsequently confirmed in handwriting. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

--------------415E8C92BB239A8231BA0B16-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <89CAD9760C99EF5827CD1A0C6194F2BB@eigenstate.org> To: darren@wisecorp.co.uk, 9fans@9fans.net Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 08:47:55 -0700 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: d788974f-a919-3ca6-06d1-7004daef02e1@wisecorp.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa372b52-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Hey folks, > > I rarely post in-fact maybe my second ever, I was wondering if anyone > else or a group of us could work towards some window manager UI > modifications to appear more attractive in some form from the current > interface appearing in comparison to dwm(on other Nix forks) to a more > usable friendly interface like gnome, KDE and the like. I don't think this would fit well on plan 9. There's room for improvement in what exists, but I think large and complex environments are liabilities. It's not something I'd be interested in using. > I'm just throwing the idea about really, I've not had much time at all > with Plan9 but from just my bare basic usage I can already see a great > future for Plan9 as a whole. As I say what with commitments currently > the last few years I could be way out of my depth and experience even > mentioning this and don't mind getting flamed a little. If you want this, you're going to need to write the code. In general, ideas are cheap, and people are unlikely to pitch in until they see where you're going. And specifically, people already know where to go if they want KDE or Gnome. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org> From: ab Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:11:03 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa3c9704-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Darren Wise wrote: > snip With all due respect (admittedly, I've thought about this before) but Plan 9 may be better used as a model of how thoughtful engineering can produce a great system. Perhaps better inspiration could be achieved by setting up a public Plan 9 server (or private, it's your server) and letting people interact with it on their own. If you want to start smaller, you can always share some code that would implement some graphical feature you find Plan 9 lacking in. This list does have a disappointing lack of semicolons. Good luck. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-332-g22ddc6a-fmstable-20190412v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <358f702e-cd73-438a-939b-75b9d38c6843@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 15:59:03 -0400 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans@9fans.net Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa468de0-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Mon, Apr 15, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Michael Misch wrote: > The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any capacity it all falls apart quickly. Begging your pardon, but for *this* differently abled person it's a huge improvement on WinGnoKDE. Anyone who wants to make *text selection* complicated ought not to be allowed near a computer, to say nothing of the numerous other problems which get in the way of just getting accustomed to and fluently using traditional GUI. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46E7EE42925499BF1B9558D2423340AA@eigenstate.org> <20190403132308.40f40cabe3c1388582669299@eigenstate.org> <20190403182228.09444137cdcf315f19033528@eigenstate.org>

<358f702e-cd73-438a-939b-75b9d38c6843@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <358f702e-cd73-438a-939b-75b9d38c6843@www.fastmail.com> From: Michael Misch Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:04:51 -0600 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000ead670586972bf1" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa519e4c-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0000000000000ead670586972bf1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That's good to note. (I don't consider "WinGnoKDE" a good counterpoint anyways) but for example I have reasonably debilitating carpal tunnel issues, and the heavy mouse use is a major bane to my general enjoyment in Rio when it happens. On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 2:00 p.m. Ethan Gardener, wrote: > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Michael Misch wrote: > > The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; > for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any > capacity it all falls apart quickly. > > Begging your pardon, but for *this* differently abled person it's a huge > improvement on WinGnoKDE. Anyone who wants to make *text selection* > complicated ought not to be allowed near a computer, to say nothing of the > numerous other problems which get in the way of just getting accustomed to > and fluently using traditional GUI. > > --0000000000000ead670586972bf1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That's good to note. (I don't consider "= ;WinGnoKDE" a good counterpoint anyways) but for example I have reason= ably debilitating carpal tunnel issues, and the heavy mouse use is a major = bane to my general enjoyment in Rio when it happens.

On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 2= :00 p.m. Ethan Gardener, <eekee57= @fastmail.fm> wrote:

On Mon,= Apr 15, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Michael Misch wrote:
> The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very w= ell; for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any c= apacity it all falls apart quickly.

Begging your pardon, but for *this* differently abled person it's a hug= e improvement on WinGnoKDE.=C2=A0 Anyone who wants to make *text selection*= complicated ought not to be allowed near a computer, to say nothing of the= numerous other problems which get in the way of just getting accustomed to= and fluently using traditional GUI.

--0000000000000ead670586972bf1-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Marshall Conover Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:59:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054644e058697eda0" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa588b4e-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --00000000000054644e058697eda0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Darren! I can see how 9's current UI could be considered a 'roadblock' to the average user due to its unfamiliarity, and making it closer to modern looks may make plan 9 pass the smell test for users more often. Personally, though, it seems like a bit of a slog; there's not much exciting going on in changing a UI to look like 'every other' UI, and I'd also wonder about maintenance - you might update it to look familiar now, but in three years where will it be, especially with web frameworks changing things so frequently and invading the desktop with elektron? That said, if it does draw more users, upkeep might get easier (just having people prompting with issue reports can be productive), and it's genuinely nice to have a more active community. But, I'd be really interested to see it taken a step further. Instead of just a facelift, I'd love to see changes that show a reflection on modern UIs and their problems, and attempts to fix them. That'd not just remove a roadblock for new users, but create change that may actually draw them. For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table, could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9. In something that I feel relates closer to the heart of 9, one problem I see in modern UIs is the inability to easily interact between programs. Each UI acts as an island, and the best generic interface for interaction you can get between them is allowing programs to send screen clicks, with the nightmare quickly following of figuring out how to know where to click. Web APIs are somewhat en route to addressing that with their REST endpoints and swagger API definitions, but it seems so much more simple to instead use files and directories over 9p. Getting really out there, I'd love to see a tightly coupled way of representing the commands you can send to a program via its ctl file API in 9 and a visual representation of that program in rio. I'd love if the UIs I was using in a program corresponded to their filesystem API so much as to be almost a mapping, perhaps even letting you generate a UI from the filesystem API and some simple mark(down|up). I think a shell that worked off of this concept could be fascinating - not unlike a browser in some ways, but in keeping close to the filesystem abstraction, perhaps allowing for much better interaction with the small, text-stream focused programs that the unix mentality prefers. In sum, I'd be happy to see an increase in users from a facelift, but what I'd love to see are new draws that fix modern problems. On a more practical level, you may find it notable that the nuklear lib has been ported for plan 9. It may be a good start to create a UI that users coming from current workflows will be comfortable looking at and interacting with. If you want to chat with the porter of the nuklear lib for 9, you'll find him in this plan 9-focused discord server: https://discord.gg/6daut5T. You may also find it's a good place for discussion like this. Thanks for starting the discussion, and good luck! Marshall --00000000000054644e058697eda0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Darren!

I can see how 9's curren= t UI could be considered a 'roadblock' to the average user due to i= ts unfamiliarity, and making it closer to modern looks may make plan 9 pass= the smell test for users more often. Personally, though, it seems like a b= it of a slog; there's not much exciting going on in changing a UI to lo= ok like 'every other' UI, and I'd also wonder about maintenance= - you might update it to look familiar now, but in three years where will = it be, especially with web frameworks changing things so frequently and inv= ading the desktop with elektron? That said, if it does draw more users, upk= eep might get easier (just having people prompting with issue reports can b= e productive), and it's genuinely nice to have a more active community.=

But, I'd be really interested to see it taken= a step further. Instead of just a facelift, I'd love to see changes th= at show a reflection on modern UIs and their problems, and attempts to fix = them. That'd not just remove a roadblock for new users, but create chan= ge that may actually draw them.

For example, I fee= l super squished on a single screen, but I've come to dislike the awkwa= rdness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or working with t= iling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to see if addin= g a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an infinitely-= scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table, coul= d be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being even = more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm le= ft wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9.

In something that I feel relates closer to the heart of 9, o= ne problem I see in modern UIs is the inability to easily interact between = programs. Each UI acts as an island, and the best generic interface for int= eraction you can get between them is allowing programs to send screen click= s, with the nightmare quickly following of figuring out how to know where t= o click. Web APIs are somewhat en route to addressing that with their REST = endpoints and swagger API definitions, but it seems so much more simple to = instead use files and directories over 9p.

Getting= really out there, I'd love to see a tightly coupled way of representin= g the commands you can send to a program via its ctl file API in 9 and a vi= sual representation of that program in rio. I'd love if the UIs I was u= sing in a program corresponded to their filesystem API so much as to be alm= ost a mapping, perhaps even letting you generate a UI from the filesystem A= PI and some simple mark(down|up). I think a shell that worked off of this c= oncept could be fascinating - not unlike a browser in some ways, but in kee= ping close to the filesystem abstraction, perhaps allowing for much better = interaction with the small, text-stream focused programs that the unix ment= ality prefers.

In sum, I'd be happy to see an = increase in users from a facelift, but what I'd love to see are new dra= ws that fix modern problems.

On a more practical l= evel, you may find it notable that=C2=A0the nuklear lib=C2=A0has been ported for plan 9. It = may be a good start to create a UI that users coming from current workflows= will be comfortable looking at and interacting with. If you want to chat w= ith the porter of the nuklear lib for 9, you'll find him in this plan 9= -focused discord server:=C2=A0https://discord.gg/6daut5T. You may also find it's a good place for discussion = like this.

Thanks for starting the discussion,= and good luck!

Marshall

--00000000000054644e058697eda0-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:10:16 -0700 From: Ori Bernstein To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-Id: <20190415141016.ad205f498cbaa99cd1ddbd63@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Marshall Conover Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa5e8f58-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:59:12 -0400 Marshall Conover wrote: > For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to > dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or > working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to > see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an > infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table, > could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being > even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm > left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9. >>From man 3 vga: panning mode Depending on whether mode is on or off, enable or dis- able panning in a virtual screen. If panning is on and the screen's size is larger than its actualsize, the displayed portion of the screen will pan to follow the mouse. Setting the panning mode after the first attach of the #i driver has no effect. -- Ori Bernstein From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 17:51:48 -0400 From: sl@9front.org To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: CAK0pxsES38e1QtmTGz4+A+RtbJuh_9RWB4TutkQNej8UUEtCPg@mail.gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa6543e8-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 thinking is hard. there is a sweet spot somewhere between ease of use and knowing what you're trying to accomplish in the first place. once you learn the system, you can get a lot of mileage out of in-built system features, such as shell commands, lists (variables), functions, and pipelines. file interfaces and private namespaces make these simple primitives even more powerful than they are on presumably more familiar unix systems. (it has to be said: unix users already don't seem to get much mileage out of existing unix features.) rio is scriptable, and all of its features are exposed to file interfaces and text commands. that's a huge steering wheel, even if your hands are small. all the cosmetic stuff new users typically complain about can be modified with a minimum of knowledge and skill. this is a benefit of the terse, simple programming style. sometimes, even a deficient program can be better than a featureful one, if the deficient program is simple and easy to modify. just implement whatever it is you actually want to do. some people would say this is ugly: http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/rio/img/20190415.png sl From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Lucio De Re Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 05:54:40 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa6de76e-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Here's one of many small issues I would like explained or adjusted: I can half run rio (p9p's rio) under xnest. I seem to recall Erik mentioning the option, but in my few efforts, it landed up with the newly-created windows on the desktop instead of within the rio xnest. Is it worth my while to delve into p9p's innards and see if I can find all the locations where this needs to be corrected? Is it going to be one locations or far too many? I simply can't sacrifice my browser and skype to rio, my job depends on those two. I'm trying hard to wean myself off Thunderbird, I detest that animal and have made some progress with Erik's upas which doesn't get totally confused with Dovecot on the IMAP side - very minor tweaks sufficed to compile under 9legacy (I just copied the le/be module(s) from the library into the "distribution"). I still need to be able to operate mailman's web interface: replacing that will with an acme/mail utility is a bit beyond me and in any case I think mailman's days are numbered, more so now that version 3 is starting to take shape and is going to obsolete version 2 that by comparison is a shrew against an elephant. Lucio. On 4/15/19, sl@9front.org wrote: > thinking is hard. there is a sweet spot somewhere between ease of use > and knowing what you're trying to accomplish in the first place. > > once you learn the system, you can get a lot of mileage out of > in-built system features, such as shell commands, lists (variables), > functions, and pipelines. file interfaces and private namespaces make > these simple primitives even more powerful than they are on presumably > more familiar unix systems. (it has to be said: unix users already > don't seem to get much mileage out of existing unix features.) > > rio is scriptable, and all of its features are exposed to file > interfaces and text commands. that's a huge steering wheel, even if > your hands are small. > > all the cosmetic stuff new users typically complain about can be > modified with a minimum of knowledge and skill. this is a benefit of > the terse, simple programming style. sometimes, even a deficient > program can be better than a featureful one, if the deficient program > is simple and easy to modify. just implement whatever it is you > actually want to do. > > some people would say this is ugly: > > http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/rio/img/20190415.png > > sl > > -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 FAX: +27 58 653 1435 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Mart Zirnask Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 01:17:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa797930-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 15/04/2019, Marshall Conover wrote: > For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to > dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or > working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to > see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an > infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table, > could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being > even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm > left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9. Semi-related, but this reminds me of a Vim plugin, Microviche, that allows one to "pan and zoom through text": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YNiPUTGO28 https://github.com/q335r49/microviche I'd say Microviche rpresents a text editing paradigm entirely of its own just like Acme. I remember having wanted to emulate something similar within Acme (the feeling of scrolling text panes/columns horizontally), but I didn't really try. Mart From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-332-g22ddc6a-fmstable-20190412v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 06:21:22 -0400 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans@9fans.net Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa7f056c-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, at 4:56 AM, Lucio De Re wrote: > > Is it worth my while to delve into p9p's innards and see if I can find > all the locations where this needs to be corrected? Is it going to be > one locations or far too many? I couldn't tell you exactly, but I can tell you X window managers can be surprisingly simple things. I looked into wm2 many years ago, a sort of sibling to p9p rio in that both derive from 9wm. I don't remember anything useful, but I do remember it was not a lot of code. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190415141016.ad205f498cbaa99cd1ddbd63@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: <20190415141016.ad205f498cbaa99cd1ddbd63@eigenstate.org> From: Marshall Conover Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 08:54:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ori Bernstein Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000feaee30586a54588" Cc: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa8455da-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --000000000000feaee30586a54588 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks, Ori, that's badass. I'll have to struggle with laziness re:hooking up to a monitor/rebooting my cpu server to give it a go, but it would be good to get a feel of what I'm aiming for. Mart - thanks for pointing out Microviche. I had considered whether zooming and other features might be neat down the line, if panning felt natural, so having something to look at for that is great. As an aside, Lucio, I'd second Ethan in that it's probably worth taking a look; I'd be surprised if there was more actual code to change than there was just ramp-up time to understand what you need to change, and a one-or-two hour excursion into the code would probably get you how much ramp-up time you need, at which point you could probably make the final call on whether to move forward. Thanks! Marshall On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 5:10 PM Ori Bernstein wrote: > On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:59:12 -0400 > Marshall Conover wrote: > > > For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to > > dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or > > working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to > > see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an > > infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table, > > could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being > > even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm > > left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9. > > From man 3 vga: > > panning mode > Depending on whether mode is on or off, enable or dis- > able panning in a virtual screen. If panning is on and > the screen's size is larger than its actualsize, the > displayed portion of the screen will pan to follow the > mouse. Setting the panning mode after the first attach > of the #i driver has no effect. > > -- > Ori Bernstein > -- Have a good day, Marshall Conover --000000000000feaee30586a54588 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks, Ori, that's badass. I'll have to struggle = with laziness re:hooking up to a monitor/rebooting my cpu server to give it= a go, but it would be good to get a feel of what I'm aiming for.

<= br>

Mart - thanks for pointing out Microviche. I had considered w= hether zooming and other features might be neat down the line, if panning f= elt natural, so having something to look at for that is great.

As an aside, Lucio, I'd second Ethan in that it's prob= ably worth taking a look; I'd be surprised if there was more actual cod= e to change than there was just ramp-up time to understand what you need to= change, and a one-or-two hour excursion into the code would probably get y= ou how much ramp-up time you need, at which point you could probably make t= he final call on whether to move forward.

Thanks!<= /div>

Marshall

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 5:10 PM Ori = Bernstein <ori@eigenstate.org&= gt; wrote:

On Mo= n, 15 Apr 2019 16:59:12 -0400
Marshall Conover <marzhall.o@gmail.com> wrote:

> For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've co= me to
> dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces&= #39; or
> working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the mom= ent to
> see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop = as an
> infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around= the table,
> could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up be= ing
> even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something = I'm
> left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9.

>>From man 3 vga:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 panning mode
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Depending on whether= mode is on or off, enable or dis-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0able panning in a vi= rtual screen.=C2=A0 If panning is on and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the screen's siz= e is larger than its actualsize, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0displayed portion of= the screen will pan to follow the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mouse.=C2=A0 Setting= the panning mode after the first attach
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the #i driver has= no effect.

--
Ori Bernstein <o= ri@eigenstate.org>

Have a good day,

Marshall Conover

--000000000000feaee30586a54588-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20190415141016.ad205f498cbaa99cd1ddbd63@eigenstate.org> From: Lucio De Re Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:57:35 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa89fc10-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 4/16/19, Marshall Conover wrote: > [ ... ] > As an aside, Lucio, I'd second Ethan in that it's probably worth taking a > look; I'd be surprised if there was more actual code to change than there > was just ramp-up time to understand what you need to change, and a > one-or-two hour excursion into the code would probably get you how much > ramp-up time you need, at which point you could probably make the final > call on whether to move forward. > Thanks to both of you for the hint. My problem, spelled out neatly above, is that I have no idea how one targets the correct "window" in X. I have completely swallowed the Plan 9 kool-aid of fine-grained namespace separation and can't contemplate how xnest gets it wrong. By the same token, incidentally, I've been wondering what the X equivalent of 9's window could be: nowhere in X's user space have I found a way to spawn a task in a window that matches the geometry I specify, unless that task includes the geometry among the command line arguments. That bit of philosophy shows so clearly how different Plan 9 and Unix really are. I will look, however. Frankly, if rio could provide a "little" more support, one may be able to run firefox (I'm assuming chrome/chromium isn't quite as liberated) in a rio window, but my efforts a while ago flopped completely - for which part of me is greatly relieved: somehow a firefox window on a Plan 9 background would be a constant thorn in my side. Lucio. PS: I did look at rio, not that long ago. But I think the problem extends to individual graphic commands. I'll see if I can get catclock to behave itself, next. Or shove the xnext magic into a rio option. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190415141016.ad205f498cbaa99cd1ddbd63@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Misch Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:02:06 -0600 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac37d10586b1f3de" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa9d3956-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --000000000000ac37d10586b1f3de Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" i tried to solve that problem on Linux, with a wm that tiled set-sized windows in a floating grid, but it was always very, very hacky. (For the curious, github.com/halfwit/hwwm) On Tue., Apr. 16, 2019, 9:59 p.m. Lucio De Re, wrote: > On 4/16/19, Marshall Conover wrote: > > [ ... ] > > As an aside, Lucio, I'd second Ethan in that it's probably worth taking a > > look; I'd be surprised if there was more actual code to change than there > > was just ramp-up time to understand what you need to change, and a > > one-or-two hour excursion into the code would probably get you how much > > ramp-up time you need, at which point you could probably make the final > > call on whether to move forward. > > > Thanks to both of you for the hint. My problem, spelled out neatly > above, is that I have no idea how one targets the correct "window" in > X. I have completely swallowed the Plan 9 kool-aid of fine-grained > namespace separation and can't contemplate how xnest gets it wrong. > > By the same token, incidentally, I've been wondering what the X > equivalent of 9's window could be: nowhere in X's user space have I > found a way to spawn a task in a window that matches the geometry I > specify, unless that task includes the geometry among the command line > arguments. That bit of philosophy shows so clearly how different Plan > 9 and Unix really are. > > I will look, however. Frankly, if rio could provide a "little" more > support, one may be able to run firefox (I'm assuming chrome/chromium > isn't quite as liberated) in a rio window, but my efforts a while ago > flopped completely - for which part of me is greatly relieved: somehow > a firefox window on a Plan 9 background would be a constant thorn in > my side. > > Lucio. > > PS: I did look at rio, not that long ago. But I think the problem > extends to individual graphic commands. I'll see if I can get catclock > to behave itself, next. Or shove the xnext magic into a rio option. > > --000000000000ac37d10586b1f3de Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

i tried to solve that problem on Linux, with a wm that ti= led set-sized windows in a floating grid, but it was always very, very hack= y. (For the curious, github.com/= halfwit/hwwm)

On Tue., Apr. 16, 2019, 9:59 p.m. Lucio De Re, <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/16/19, Marshall Conover <marzh= all.o@gmail.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> As an aside, Lucio, I'd second Ethan in that it's probably wor= th taking a
> look; I'd be surprised if there was more actual code to change tha= n there
> was just ramp-up time to understand what you need to change, and a
> one-or-two hour excursion into the code would probably get you how muc= h
> ramp-up time you need, at which point you could probably make the fina= l
> call on whether to move forward.
>
Thanks to both of you for the hint. My problem, spelled out neatly
above, is that I have no idea how one targets the correct "window"= ; in
X. I have completely swallowed the Plan 9 kool-aid of fine-grained
namespace separation and can't contemplate how xnest gets it wrong.

By the same token, incidentally, I've been wondering what the X
equivalent of 9's window could be: nowhere in X's user space have I=
found a way to spawn a task in a window that matches the geometry I
specify, unless that task includes the geometry among the command line
arguments. That bit of philosophy shows so clearly how different Plan
9 and Unix really are.

I will look, however. Frankly, if rio could provide a "little" mo= re
support, one may be able to run firefox (I'm assuming chrome/chromium isn't quite as liberated) in a rio window, but my efforts a while ago flopped completely - for which part of me is greatly relieved: somehow
a firefox window on a Plan 9 background would be a constant thorn in
my side.

Lucio.

PS: I did look at rio, not that long ago. But I think the problem
extends to individual graphic commands. I'll see if I can get catclock<= br> to behave itself, next. Or shove the xnext magic into a rio option.

--000000000000ac37d10586b1f3de-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20190415141016.ad205f498cbaa99cd1ddbd63@eigenstate.org> From: Lucio De Re Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 06:25:13 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements. Topicbox-Message-UUID: faa8c866-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 4/17/19, Michael Misch wrote: > i tried to solve that problem on Linux, with a wm that tiled set-sized > windows in a floating grid, but it was always very, very hacky. (For the > curious, github.com/halfwit/hwwm) > A name (halfwit) worthy of the long-forgotten fortune database! Lucio.