From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9A3455DB-8B65-46B3-9F57-6E98639392CB@me.com> From: Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 09:59:31 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c03f688ebd259053b81b536 Subject: Re: [9fans] Musings on Interfaces Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9c19072a-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --94eb2c03f688ebd259053b81b536 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use Sam mostly for the remote editing facility, but I should perhaps try to add plumber rules to use a remote 'B' command to trigger opening the files from the remote machine like James A. Robinson mentioned. Apart from that, acme is my main command center. I usually have acme straddling two monitors, with command windows running ssh to Solaris, Linux, and Windows boxes. The file system is shared, so this lets me have essentially the same environment on multiple platforms. Also, I find the acme button 3 invaluable when reading debug logs, since clicking on a file:line output in the log immediately lets me see in which context the output was generated. On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Steve Simon wrote: > hi, > > Sam has been my only editor since the X11 port was released in about 1992= . > I have not really tried acme, I never gave it a real chance but I used to > use it > to edit the plan 9 wiki so I have a little skill. > > I agree scroll select is the one feature I would add - I have a feeling > the 9front guys may have already done this... > > I think it is just habit but I find Sam so comfortable I just resist > change. > > -Steve > > > On 1 Sep 2016, at 23:56, Winston Kodogo wrote: > > Thanks to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love many things > about Sam, but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. The structural > regular expression stuff is a work of genius, but I still find, such are = my > limitations, that the user interface is just too clunky and retro. > > On 2 September 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile wrote= : > >> I think I=E2=80=99ve been a member of 9fans for its entire history. The = earliest >> saved 9fans email in my /mail/box/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the tim= e I >> have not said much. Given that the list isn=E2=80=99t very busy these da= ys, and >> that I=E2=80=99m doing a lot of thinking about Plan 9, I thought I would= post some >> of my seemingly random musings. >> >> Today I=E2=80=99m thinking about Plan 9=E2=80=99s interfaces. >> >> The reason for thinking about those is that I=E2=80=99ve just switch bac= k to >> sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change = is >> as good as a rest. I=E2=80=99ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six day= s a week >> lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme. I=E2= =80=99ve >> been using it for many years and it is a great tool. >> >> The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office i= n >> Redwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the >> effect that =E2=80=9Cyou are one of those.=E2=80=9D He uses sam as do ma= ny of the folks who >> created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I had did a po= ll >> years ago but can=E2=80=99t seem to find the results. As did I for many = years, even >> after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a version of it working on = my >> Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the samterm and all. It >> was the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure at Bell Labs in >> 1990. Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Winterbottom and h= is >> Alef language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like rio(1) withou= t >> the bumpers one can use to move and resize the window. >> >> I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did >> have modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not = to >> do acme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that >> part of the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a >> shell variable that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconsci= ous >> chording stopped. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other wa= y around. >> Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And that >> difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use acme= , I >> mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It becom= es >> a kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like sed >> and awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using >> acme. I had a similar thing happen when in the 1980=E2=80=99s I dropped = vi for ed. >> I used ed until the 1990=E2=80=99s when I was able to switch to sam full= time. >> >> But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it >> and acme. >> >> In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window >> rather than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command >> language in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feel= s >> different. There is something to be said for the convenience of the comm= and >> windows in sam. >> >> If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the tim= e >> it took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while >> working. Our tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took ab= out >> a week to switch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a functio= n >> of how much I used sam in the past. >> >> I=E2=80=99m very grateful to still be using these tools. It=E2=80=99s a = very personal >> thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and the old >> shell, and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, bot= h >> acme and sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded th= em >> and followed them. >> >> Brantley Coile >> >> >> > --94eb2c03f688ebd259053b81b536 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I use Sam mostly for the remote editing facility, but I sh= ould perhaps try to add plumber rules to=C2= =A0 use a remote 'B' command to trigger opening the files from the = remote machine like James A. Robinson mentioned. Apart from that, acme is m= y main command center. I usually have acme straddling two monitors, with co= mmand windows running ssh to Solaris, Linux, and Windows boxes. The file sy= stem is shared, so this lets me have essentially the same environment on mu= ltiple platforms. Also, I find the acme button 3 invaluable when reading de= bug logs, since clicking on a file:line output in the log immediately lets = me see in which context the output was generated.

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:3= 4 AM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
hi,

Sam has been my only editor since the X11 port was released in abo= ut 1992.
I have not really tried acme, I never gave it a real cha= nce but I used to use it
to edit the plan 9 wiki so I have a litt= le skill.

I agree scroll select is the one feature= I would add - I have a feeling the 9front guys may have already done this.= ..

I think it is just habit but I find Sam so comf= ortable I just resist change.

-Steve


On 1 Sep 2016, at 23:56, Winston Kodogo <kodogo@gmail.com> wr= ote:

Thanks to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love = many things about Sam, but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. T= he structural regular expression stuff is a work of genius, but I still fin= d, such are my limitations, that the user interface is just too clunky and = retro.

O= n 2 September 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile <brantleycoile@me.com= > wrote:
I think I=E2=80=99ve b= een a member of 9fans for its entire history. The earliest saved 9fans emai= l in my /mail/box/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the time I have not said m= uch. Given that the list isn=E2=80=99t very busy these days, and that I=E2= =80=99m doing a lot of thinking about Plan 9, I thought I would post some o= f my seemingly random musings.

Today I=E2=80=99m thinking about Plan 9=E2=80=99s interfaces.

The reason for thinking about those is that I=E2=80=99ve just switch back t= o sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change i= s as good as a rest. I=E2=80=99ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six days= a week lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme.= I=E2=80=99ve been using it for many years and it is a great tool.

The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office in R= edwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the eff= ect that =E2=80=9Cyou are one of those.=E2=80=9D He uses sam as do many of = the folks who created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I h= ad did a poll years ago but can=E2=80=99t seem to find the results. As did = I for many years, even after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a versi= on of it working on my Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the= samterm and all. It was the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure= at Bell Labs in 1990. Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Wint= erbottom and his Alef language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like= rio(1) without the bumpers one can use to move and resize the window.

I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did ha= ve modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not to do= acme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that part= of the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a shell v= ariable that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconscious chordi= ng stopped.

I don=E2=80=99t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other way a= round. Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And = that difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use ac= me, I mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It be= comes a kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like = sed and awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using= acme. I had a similar thing happen when in the 1980=E2=80=99s I dropped vi= for ed. I used ed until the 1990=E2=80=99s when I was able to switch to sa= m full time.

But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it and= acme.

In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window ra= ther than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command langu= age in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feels differ= ent. There is something to be said for the convenience of the command windo= ws in sam.

If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the time i= t took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while working= . Our tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took about a week= to switch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a function of how = much I used sam in the past.

I=E2=80=99m very grateful to still be using these tools. It=E2=80=99s a ver= y personal thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and th= e old shell, and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, = both acme and sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded = them and followed them.

=C2=A0 Brantley Coile




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