From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24812 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2021 13:54:13 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 22 Aug 2021 13:54:13 -0000 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC50427B5B for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:54:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mMdcb928be475cb614573450f3.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id D31C3FF4CEB; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:54:11 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Aa8RSOyk header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=echoline@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1629640451; bh=Vm7otnhfs69/jarA zYgEsQXTcEU6j8pG3Ah6jX1prnM=; b=jZdxmMh60mD4Io2BZXPI9dFmHMIYfOyH k0g+uw98tbw4BRrkrq/Xz0H/A/pUvHy6PJYk3BtH2N6jS2bCn9vFmGa9DNIIxo0U KcbV/BzzyqUAVZv/wJNen5eAsuksOXiuAV4UY2/N8hI2AP4M8PvbSIDR1Ofyf6RX d3k4BeYr4ek= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1629640451; b=tFJ3zMiRQ/t0vE1zKbZVXIplr5pLyt/z2ovR//5CbpPBa7x1RM 3Cb24bavRfjy7lzWtH7je7UfeXhXGJ8X7kF5+6LJH81oEjAYecQwQixjuqSux8C8 5zO04gYloREsWJpAnQz8qzLw0Yf5Ble+BvAvow9cPYVirqJ1KS50yBNcE= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Aa8RSOyk header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=echoline@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Aa8RSOyk header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.219.54 (mail-qv1-f54.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=echoline@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=V6Hn0TEm; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com policy.ptr=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject :to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=v0bdqZq1wvPFTUYCGTlPzqL4Xi8R9WDLMRAGDCO0qB4=; b=CxqSViSQjiSd +18ykbzmzHLNmJQzVPWUUQQGUWlwUx9N+Gcsps+/wQfHMZTqNQdLMZmrWx/PYLvF nh5ndBHyaQuWsxVzdx6CWoRs+N7EdvKAdl9Xa1ksAgWnAhDGucj6apcpTkGuke+/ GEPXrdwOdFrkIMOxbF1lWsM+nyabxXA= Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF49BFF48EF for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:53:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from echoline@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 78E3BED9525; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:53:59 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1629640439; b=XZlGHp7VtsG79Pc7bp5LUYIHEE4s8w8gNheQpMSDFglYjcpLjd NPJT8dICw/KowzzleGI+ZE97KR4zVyXanD7w28tqNqGSMQ9oNbmS/VsrErepP8DK Jwkz+T10wmRoKX8eZS3v0/CcTfTWpmq1IWdzAQAvVC8u5FPkvTDBdpq2lCsXyKJo sBU1h4F1BBj6ODSTblmK0n7/7ULUVgi01hFaEmJyy9aWbGj0XHEYVxi9c+jKEFmJ QHNw3xTVRT0xua6ZFx/Nweo3ObK2yN6NcxY9PiAluN3yEVZ0heF/kAsmuD2uWcUt Rzx22YVoEhJcyXscJIGJ6APKQpKJCjAjkvfQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=arcseal; t=1629640439; bh=FoOSpeNZVKAXgg3iJ69brblA5quTVcgv2+/ L/jrIh7I=; b=BPqmzhAREnEV5chCuszWfaG5qXze9LFVkoZOh7OPPd3R2WvFtrb jNLapy+VpTj85FHM9mO5i59Uf9HOSXBVxLzJQSrQ7RHTrt7B7BImYEepsfL3b0CT hzJtpDjg1GaO2uhc1K6iw7HQmO9CPjVlT+peFsi0dgesta51jKRs3vOX2YiiY2Pr RQEyHnwX1k6Otzmvvxi9IbLoz/IOVa3N4jlPNZeFiDM3ZoObCwDuh6eli3ykuEI1 KBtAB2p/48gEoL6QjSyKsDeKosEiehf6Gqk5sIgXuhwDvMGka+PwMqA1L+CS1Hjw uhp1KoZ5naWabyg/wG6sTuCXVXbKMCY9T4Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Aa8RSOyk header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.219.54 (mail-qv1-f54.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=echoline@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=V6Hn0TEm; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com policy.ptr=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddruddtfedgjedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeggfhgjhf ffkffuvfgtgfesthhqredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepgfhlihcuvehohhgvnhcuoegvtghh ohhlihhnvgesghhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfeegjeduffelfe evieeiffffffeuteejleeugffhkeegffduteelfeehieduteelnecuffhomhgrihhnpegr mhgurdgtohhmpdhtohhpihgtsghogidrtghomhenucfkphepvddtledrkeehrddvudelrd ehgeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedvtdelrdek hedrvdduledrheegpdhhvghlohepmhgrihhlqdhqvhduqdhfheegrdhgohhoghhlvgdrtg homhdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeeovggthhholhhinhgvsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqe X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'echoline@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="echoline@gmail.com"; helo=mail-qv1-f54.google.com; client-ip=209.85.219.54 Received: from mail-qv1-f54.google.com (mail-qv1-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:53:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from echoline@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qv1-f54.google.com with SMTP id q6so8233171qvs.12 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FoOSpeNZVKAXgg3iJ69brblA5quTVcgv2+/L/jrIh7I=; b=V6Hn0TEm5Ejk+LlgLizb+HpInBhPqPPWnLit4CGhPGsmyVvBomHY4AC6qJP/+8+TSL Cq8EtrEO4ch7lzBFP50e3SSSI0aZC5dqTIIQ1R63+Vmxcnu85YdSmpD090KJtB8fudQ3 d6qVU/Q2dtjApTFxl8EgF6rQ0ekDqH3GTiUxIIPxCJ/cKQHGIlJv8ThPUaZmkiXrzEx8 WvkCpCGhGv6D9waGoYquGwJo49F4d2M9nQaxa9nfS7LLL6ydwMKpXjXa8XDlQaCdAHYg iYELd28vZmB1I2Mgub4A5XX5zShca6GMy46FHZRaSyI9mlZvshKooZWWJYdHZh1qD+yc fu8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Svez999Zh7f5spli09zqxmvak3Du2DUpDkHKpyXQEu+utTMla 8q9CTYbpK7d1N5BBZLFvTIanCTsRfpWn4trj34iXwTzV8hE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwx81RYvnBlPvm/p3YlVhKPTXXjUnmkH5Fi07CfygBzmlpR7lQ/OPJp/y5nMkyzOK2EYmY+uyrFqV8zU9J47b0= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f901:: with SMTP id v1mr15446296qvn.45.1629640438793; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:53:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <92764e35-f5cf-460a-91df-050ba471e6dd@sirjofri.de> In-Reply-To: From: Eli Cohen Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:53:48 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Drawterm GPU (was: Software philosophy) To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6a79789e-0350-11ec-9311-a539908a6bcb Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQyOWJmYzIyM2RjNGZiZS1NZGNiOTI4YmU0NzVjYjYxNDU3MzQ1?= =?UTF-8?B?MGYzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdcb928be475cb614573450f3:1:xpPQTsYGF67LJ3jLp1CJ-YvhbkssiIL5QZsp1Ubicn8 I wasn't aware of open-source cards only for ML/NN... that's interesting. I was just poking through the # drivers... as I recalled there was something specifically for using the FPU, but now I can't figure that out... I'm not sure where I saw that or thought that... that was more what I was thinking, though. On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 6:46 AM Paul Lalonde wro= te: > > I'd love to see GPU support for Plan9. This discussion falls right into= my professional capacity. I'll say that people generally *grossly* undere= stimate the complexity of a modern GPU and of its supporting software stack= . The GPU driver is effectively a second operating system with shared memo= ry and DMA interfaces to the host. Even bringing up a modern GPU for just = compute tasks is a very large endeavour. > > That being said, if you want real hardware support, the best place to sta= rt is currently AMD's open-source stack. Ignoring the Vulkan bit, understa= nding their platform abstraction layer (PAL) and shader ISA (https://develo= per.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July2017.pdf) is the bas= e. The lower hardware levels are reasonably well-described in linux's libd= rm and its AMD support in amdgpu. > > Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9? I don't really have any - it's a= huge pile of work with minimal benefit. If you're looking for lightweight= graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and almost certainly the right way to ex= periment with Plan9-like interfaces to graphics hardware. > > Paul > > > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri = wrote: >> >> >> 22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow : >> > Also: >> >> people have discussed that for years >> > >> > They have? I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely >> > going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". That isn't >> > discussion. >>=20 >> I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. I've >> only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece of >> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her >> partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like >> it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it. >>=20 >> Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for >> Plan 9 and nobody knows about it. >>=20 >> sirjofri >>=20 >> Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some >> details. > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permali= nk ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-Mdcb92= 8be475cb614573450f3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription