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* [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
@ 2020-11-12 21:36 Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13  3:50 ` Lucio De Re
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-12 21:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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Hi,

FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
@Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
please try to include this handle in your announcements.

Thanks,
-Skip

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2020-11-13  3:50 ` Lucio De Re
  2020-11-13  3:55   ` Don A. Bailey
  2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-11-13  3:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
> please try to include this handle in your announcements.
>
Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a
medium with Donald Trump.

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13  3:50 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-11-13  3:55   ` Don A. Bailey
  2020-11-13  3:57     ` Calvin Morrison
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Don A. Bailey @ 2020-11-13  3:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

You know Trump has email, right? ;-) 

D

> On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
>> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
>> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
>> please try to include this handle in your announcements.
>> 
> Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a
> medium with Donald Trump.
> 
> Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13  3:55   ` Don A. Bailey
@ 2020-11-13  3:57     ` Calvin Morrison
  2020-11-13  6:31       ` sirjofri+ml-9fans
  2020-11-16  0:03       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Calvin Morrison @ 2020-11-13  3:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: g_patrickb via 9fans

It's ok, plan9 will get disputed by twitter fact checkers before a twitter presence is established.


On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> You know Trump has email, right? ;-) 
> 
> D
> 
> > On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
> >> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
> >> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
> >> please try to include this handle in your announcements.
> >> 
> > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a
> > medium with Donald Trump.
> > 
> > Lucio.

-- 
Calvin

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13  3:57     ` Calvin Morrison
@ 2020-11-13  6:31       ` sirjofri+ml-9fans
  2020-11-16  0:03       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri+ml-9fans @ 2020-11-13  6:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Hey,

I didn't get the initial mail in this thread in my sirjofri.de mailbox. 
Only in my gmail box...

I am on twitter, but not actively at the moment. I'll follow it, but 
don't expect too much from me. You can retweet my plan9 related posts if 
you want, maybe this brings some attention after all this time...

sirjofri

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13  3:50 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-11-13 18:45 ` Kim Shrier
  2020-11-13 19:05   ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-16  0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
  2020-11-18  2:34 ` [9fans] " ori
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Kim Shrier @ 2020-11-13 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> On Nov 12, 2020, at 2:36 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, please try to include this handle in your announcements.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Skip

I hope this does not become the preferred method for news and announcements.

I don’t have a twitter account and have no plans to change that.

Kim



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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier
@ 2020-11-13 19:05   ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13 19:09     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13 23:23     ` Pouya Tafti
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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It is in addition to existing channels, including 9fans list.

BTW, there are two groups on LinkedIn (both named "Plan 9 from Bell Labs").
One is managed by John Floren and the other by Sergey, Charles and myself.
It probably has the least traffic. (also, perhaps we should combine them?)

-Skip


On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:47 AM Kim Shrier <kim@westryn.net> wrote:

> > On Nov 12, 2020, at 2:36 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <
> skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
> please try to include this handle in your announcements.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Skip
> 
> I hope this does not become the preferred method for news and
> announcements.
> 
> I don’t have a twitter account and have no plans to change that.
> 
> Kim
> 

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13 19:05   ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2020-11-13 19:09     ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13 23:23     ` Pouya Tafti
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 568 bytes --]

>
>
>
> BTW, there are two groups on LinkedIn (both named "Plan 9 from Bell
> Labs"). One is managed by John Floren and the other by Sergey, Charles and
> myself. It probably has the least traffic. (also, perhaps we should combine
> them?)
>

The second LinkedIn group I mentioned also includes nemo, djc and ericvh as
managers.

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13 19:05   ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13 19:09     ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2020-11-13 23:23     ` Pouya Tafti
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Pouya Tafti @ 2020-11-13 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Fri, 13 Nov 2020, at 20:05, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> It is in addition to existing channels, including 9fans list. 
> 
> BTW, there are two groups on LinkedIn (both named "Plan 9 from Bell Labs"). One is managed by John Floren and the other by Sergey, Charles and myself. It probably has the least traffic. (also, perhaps we should combine them?)
> 
> -Skip

Thank you for setting up the Twitter account.  I started following it.  Concerning LinkedIn as a platform, IMHO, it may be useful for recruitment but as a social medium it's a toxic wasteland of self-promotion and marketing hype (or at least it was when I stopped visiting).  I'm sure the Plan 9 groups are still great though.

Pouya
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* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-13  3:57     ` Calvin Morrison
  2020-11-13  6:31       ` sirjofri+ml-9fans
@ 2020-11-16  0:03       ` cigar562hfsp952fans
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-11-16  0:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>> > On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi,
>> >> 
>> >> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
>> >> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
>> >> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
>> >> please try to include this handle in your announcements.
>> >> 
>> > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a
>> > medium with Donald Trump.
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> You know Trump has email, right? ;-) 

I don't know about that.  He's never responded to e-mail from me.  :-/

"Calvin Morrison" <calvin@fastmailteam.com> writes:

> It's ok, plan9 will get disputed by twitter fact checkers before a
> twitter presence is established.

LOL

Nothing that good could possible be true, could it?  ;)

"Pouya Tafti" <pouya+lists.9fans@nohup.io> writes:

> Concerning LinkedIn as a platform, IMHO, it may be useful for
> recruitment but as a social medium it's a toxic wasteland of
> self-promotion and marketing hype

...just like Twitter.

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* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian
  2020-11-13  3:50 ` Lucio De Re
  2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier
@ 2020-11-16  0:09 ` cigar562hfsp952fans
  2020-12-03  3:09   ` cigar562hfsp952fans
  2020-11-18  2:34 ` [9fans] " ori
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-11-16  0:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> writes:

> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
> please try to include this handle in your announcements.

I actually think this is a REALLY good idea.  We can use Twitter to
stir-up mass hysteria about zombies from outer space planning to invade
Earth by bombarding it with electromagnetic "Tmsgs."  As long as these
"Tmsgs" are invisible, the people on Twitter will believe it.  We can
lock-down the entire world, and make people shut off all the computers
on Earth!  We'll use the Defense Production Act to manufacture millions
of tinfoil hats (called "Mount Points") to block all the Tmsgs from
Outer Space, and tell people that it's dangerous to come within 6 feet
of a smartphone without wearing a Mount Point.  Then, exactly one week
after Skip Tavakkolian is declared Supreme Commander of the Internet,
Bell Labs (which Twitter users will believe still exists) announces its
developement of a "9front Space Force Edition" which is 90% effective at
generating Rmsgs that neutralize the deadly Tmsgs.  Because the ISOs
need to be stored in liquid nitrogen, however, we'll have to mobilize
the military to blanket the countryside, reaming every HPFS partition it
can find.  Then, every computer will be running Plan 9!  Plan 9 will
conquor Georgia, and then conquer the world!  Mwwwwahaaahaahaaa!

Sounds like a great way to promote our favorite operating system.
Wouldn't you agree?

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-11-16  0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
@ 2020-11-18  2:34 ` ori
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2020-11-18  2:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: skip.tavakkolian, 9fans

Quoth Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>:
> Hi,
> 
> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle
> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community.   Please
> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics,
> please try to include this handle in your announcements.

I don't generally twatter, but feel free to tweet about anything I post.

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* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-11-16  0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
@ 2020-12-03  3:09   ` cigar562hfsp952fans
  2020-12-03  4:01     ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-03  3:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org writes:

> I actually think this is a REALLY good idea.  We can use Twitter to
> stir-up mass hysteria about zombies from outer space planning to invade

...

> Sounds like a great way to promote our favorite operating system.
> Wouldn't you agree?

OK, so, obviously, I was joking.  But the COVID-19 playbook does suggest
an interesting way to promote Plan 9.  The steps required to do this
would be, roughly:

 (1) Identify a worm that spreads from computer-to-computer and causes
     ZERO harm, 99.9% of the time, but causes TOTAL DESTRUCTION AND DATA
     LOSS in 0.1% of the computers it infests.

 (2) Get video of people in a panic, screaming and wailing about all
     their data being destroyed, and post it on the Internet.

 (3) Post lots of tweets about how dangerous the worm is, re-tweet,
     share, and generally hype-up the videos, along with dire
     predictions about how the worm will destroy the Internet.

 (4) Come up with a "test" to "detect" the worm, which has the following
     three characteristics:

      (A) Has a positive result whenever the worm is present;

      (B) Has a positive result whenever the CRC32 of the system's
          base-level page tables is less than 210210210; and

      (C) Only runs in Plan 9, installed to a vm image or live CD, so
          the test can only be run, in person, by a trained Plan 9
          technician with physical access to the computer being tested.

 (5) Release a new version of 9front named after the dreaded worm, and
     tell people that installing it will make their device immune to the
     worm.

It would require a little bit of coding, and a LOT of Tweeting, but if
9fans now have a Twitter account... creating a 9-demic is within the
realm of possibility.

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* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-03  3:09   ` cigar562hfsp952fans
@ 2020-12-03  4:01     ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-03  7:25       ` Mart Zirnask
  2020-12-05 22:25       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-03  4:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 12/3/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org
<cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote:
> cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org writes:
>
> [ ... ]
> It would require a little bit of coding, and a LOT of Tweeting, but if
> 9fans now have a Twitter account... creating a 9-demic is within the
> realm of possibility.
>
But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
mailing list?

Lucio.

PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language
for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over.

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* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-03  4:01     ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-12-03  7:25       ` Mart Zirnask
  2020-12-03  8:50         ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-05 22:25       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Mart Zirnask @ 2020-12-03  7:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language
> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over.

Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the
essay where he discusses this?

Thanks,
Mart

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* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-03  7:25       ` Mart Zirnask
@ 2020-12-03  8:50         ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-03  9:28           ` [9fans] " Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-03  8:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

ewd498 - should suffice for a search.
cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/index00xx.html seems an interesting place to look.

And I may have paraphrased Dijkstra more strongly than he would have
intended, but I'm sure he'll forgive me.

Lucio.

On 12/3/20, Mart Zirnask <martzirnask@gmail.com> wrote:
>> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
>> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
>> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language
>> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over.
> 
> Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the
> essay where he discusses this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mart


-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 71 471 3694
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-03  8:50         ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-12-03  9:28           ` Bakul Shah
  2020-12-04  9:37             ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2020-12-03  9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1839 bytes --]

In his Turing Award lecture "The Humber Programmer" he expresses this sentiment.

"the tools we are trying to use and the language or notation we are using to express or record our thoughts, are the major factors determining what we can think or express at all!"

You all may enjoy listening to him!

https://youtu.be/jDvaEiK__B8?list=PL99C1C9F94FB8FA4B&t=127

The above clip is positioned at "Now for the fifth argument." if you just want to read the
relevant paragraph in the transcription below:

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html

Finally, I very much doubt he would have liked C!


> On Dec 3, 2020, at 12:50 AM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ewd498 - should suffice for a search.
> cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/index00xx.html seems an interesting place to look.
> 
> And I may have paraphrased Dijkstra more strongly than he would have
> intended, but I'm sure he'll forgive me.
> 
> Lucio.
> 
> On 12/3/20, Mart Zirnask <martzirnask@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
>>> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
>>> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language
>>> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over.
>> 
>> Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the
>> essay where he discusses this?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Mart
> 
> 
> --
> Lucio De Re
> 2 Piet Retief St
> Kestell (Eastern Free State)
> 9860 South Africa
> 
> Ph.: +27 71 471 3694
> Cell: +27 83 251 5824

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-03  9:28           ` [9fans] " Bakul Shah
@ 2020-12-04  9:37             ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-04 13:20               ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-04  9:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 12/3/20, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>
> Finally, I very much doubt he would have liked C!
>
I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used
array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around
pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C.

I would prefer a Modula-2 derived language for code I need to share
with others (that's about all code, in my tradition), but Go is a good
alternative, although I'm not missing it right now, having decided to
punish my colleagues by using their own choice: PHP.

I'd like to find a community that discusses the pros and cons of
programming notations in an objective fashion, rather than the more
common approach to solve some immediate problem with time to market as
the only actual target criterion.

I guess that is like Science Fiction, it keeps slipping into Fantasy.

A revised version of "A Discipline of Programming" could provide a
pretty sound foundation for that kind of discussion, in my opinion. Go
seems to be taking steroids, at the moment, and I have no preference
past it. It's a shame, because a lot of great design was spent on Go.
I don't think anything really valuable was rejected, but a lot was
included that opened far too many doors, in my opinion, of course.

Lucio.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-04  9:37             ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-12-04 13:20               ` hiro
  2020-12-05  9:12                 ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2020-12-04 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

"discipline" is a good keyword.
it's not about the language IMO.
sure, in some edge-cases sometimes things are 2-3 times harder, but
it's rather bad culture and bad conventions that waste my time than
the language itself.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-04 13:20               ` hiro
@ 2020-12-05  9:12                 ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-05  9:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 12/4/20, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
> "discipline" is a good keyword.
> it's not about the language IMO.\
> [ ... ]
I watched Uncle Tom, whoever he may be, dissing practically every
language under the sun with very little substance to what he was
presenting. Didn't convince me that he really knew what he was talking
about. I get the impression he is a promoter of the "agile"
development style?

I have an idea of where the common paradigms get in the way, but I
need to figure a way - Fermat's style - to condense my thinking into a
brief description and I don't think I'm up to the task.

But I like to hear about other people's experiences and opinions, even
if I tend to seek the weaknesses in other people's arguments, rather
that to reinforce them. By all means mail me privately if you want a
sounding board.

Lucio.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-03  4:01     ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-03  7:25       ` Mart Zirnask
@ 2020-12-05 22:25       ` cigar562hfsp952fans
  2020-12-06  3:56         ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-06 19:52         ` Ethan Gardener
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-05 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes:

> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
> mailing list?

Good point.  Making something popular usually destroys it.  E-mail used
to be good, prior to The September That Never Ended.  Linux used to be
good, until about 2005.  The World Wide Web used to be good, too...
until it became popular.  Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret.  ;)

It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
intended for idiots and technology intended for experts.  Imagine if,
for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
over 9P.  The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.

> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language

That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.

> I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used
> array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around
> pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C.

Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
C.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-05 22:25       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
@ 2020-12-06  3:56         ` Lucio De Re
  2020-12-07  4:45           ` Devon H. O'Dell
  2020-12-06 19:52         ` Ethan Gardener
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-06  3:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org
<cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote:
> Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
>> mailing list?
>
> Good point.  [ ... ]  Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret.  ;)

Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes.
>
> It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
> intended for idiots and technology intended for experts.  Imagine if,
> for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
> over 9P.  The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
> swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.
>
I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a
glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler
DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm
not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes
all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be
possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep,
enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or
Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done
with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of
Information.

[ ... ]
> That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
> to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.
>
Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote
"scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the
local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close
to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of
hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to
comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to
stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional,
definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to
English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that
used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have
to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the
colonising Brits for beating the French.

Twists and turns, indeed.

> Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
> C.
>
Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially
successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially
successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's
success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the
key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and
C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm,
more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head.
Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction
set as long as possible.

It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much
rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving"
the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds
of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce
(simplistically, of course).

Lucio.

PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will
be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-05 22:25       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
  2020-12-06  3:56         ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-12-06 19:52         ` Ethan Gardener
  2020-12-07  4:28           ` Lucio De Re
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Ethan Gardener @ 2020-12-06 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sat, Dec 5, 2020, at 10:25 PM, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org wrote:
> 
> It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
> intended for idiots and technology intended for experts.  Imagine if,
> for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
> over 9P.  The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
> swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.

I recently learned most Amiga programs had "Rexx ports". They'd accept commands in the scripting language Rexx (or rather Arexx) from other programs or the user. It's another way of doing the same thing. It also avoids some GUI bloat: if a program wanted to open a file selector, it would call the file manager to do it.

> > PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s)
> > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your
> > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language
> 
> That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
> to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.

I don't know the hypothesis, but very much agree different languages influence how you think and even feel.

> > I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used
> > array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around
> > pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C.
> 
> Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
> C.

To me, C pointers are just another way of indexing the Great Memory Array -- it's a union of arrays of all different types. ;) I am much more comfortable with the syntax of array subscripts, too. I came to C from BASIC and assembly language.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-06 19:52         ` Ethan Gardener
@ 2020-12-07  4:28           ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-07  4:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 12/6/20, Ethan Gardener <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> I don't know the hypothesis, but very much agree different languages
> influence how you think and even feel.
>
You know, my most memorable and influential mentor was Daniel
Friedman. I'm not sure I have the spelling right and he's probably in
his seventies, today. His field was anthropology, but he also lectured
adults at SUNY, Buffalo (NY) who wanted a formal qualification after
having learnt the computer programming ropes on the job. What reminds
me of him is that he had written a book on APL programming and I had
just started to get comfortable with the language. I can almost feel
my own mental transition from "before APL" to "after" all these years
ago.

Daniel's repertoire of anecdotes was astounding and extremely
instructive. His theme was pretty much "team programming" and I have
borne that burden with me through decades of operating more or less
alone as a programmer, consultant and analyst.

But the most significant anecdote of my own regards "team
programming". After a fortnight of practically indoctrination from
Daniel, the entire final year CS class was sold on working together
exclusively.

So when some droid came along looking for sharp programmers to develop
some financial software in various distant locations (Switzerland was
one such - I bet it was a scam, but that was the last I heard of it),
we all stood together and refused to accept an offer that would see us
working individually. I don't remember anyone breaking rank, but I
can't be certain.

The prospective employers would have none of it, they felt that teams
of people who already knew each other would be a threat to their
organisation - and they were probably right. I believe I know what
happened in that situation and I seriously believe that with the
mindset of the 1970s, today's hardware and a batch of bright
developers who are keen and willing to work tightly together, we'd be
living in a very different world.

But we couldn't have that, could we? Only those who are no threat to
the Establishment are allowed to succeed. And the Establishment,
specially the financial organisations, is certainly able and willing
to identify them and suppress anything that might threaten their
domination.

A conspiracy theory? More likely simply "social evolution". I'm hoping
the next massive asteroid will hit this planet before we have a chance
to sterilise it beyond recovery.

Lucio.

------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
  2020-12-06  3:56         ` Lucio De Re
@ 2020-12-07  4:45           ` Devon H. O'Dell
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Devon H. O'Dell @ 2020-12-07  4:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4080 bytes --]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 19:57 Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org
> <cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote:
> > Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
> >> mailing list?
> >
> > Good point.  [ ... ]  Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret.  ;)
>
> Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes.
> >
> > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
> > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts.  Imagine if,
> > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
> > over 9P.  The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
> > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.
> >
> I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a
> glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler
> DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm
> not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes
> all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be
> possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep,
> enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or
> Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done
> with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of
> Information.
>
> [ ... ]
> > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
> > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.
> >
> Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote
> "scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the
> local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close
> to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of
> hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to
> comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to


Let's not overemphasize sapir-whorf. Many folks taught primarily in English
find modern science impossible to understand. And SW ends up being a vector
for beguiled racism.

--dho


> stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional,
> definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to
> English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that
> used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have
> to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the
> colonising Brits for beating the French.
>
> Twists and turns, indeed.
>
> > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
> > C.
> >
> Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially
> successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially
> successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's
> success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the
> key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and
> C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm,
> more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head.
> Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction
> set as long as possible.
> 
> It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much
> rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving"
> the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds
> of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce
> (simplistically, of course).
> 
> Lucio.
> 
> PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will
> be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there.

------------------------------------------
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end of thread, other threads:[~2020-12-07  4:45 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 25+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian
2020-11-13  3:50 ` Lucio De Re
2020-11-13  3:55   ` Don A. Bailey
2020-11-13  3:57     ` Calvin Morrison
2020-11-13  6:31       ` sirjofri+ml-9fans
2020-11-16  0:03       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier
2020-11-13 19:05   ` Skip Tavakkolian
2020-11-13 19:09     ` Skip Tavakkolian
2020-11-13 23:23     ` Pouya Tafti
2020-11-16  0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
2020-12-03  3:09   ` cigar562hfsp952fans
2020-12-03  4:01     ` Lucio De Re
2020-12-03  7:25       ` Mart Zirnask
2020-12-03  8:50         ` Lucio De Re
2020-12-03  9:28           ` [9fans] " Bakul Shah
2020-12-04  9:37             ` Lucio De Re
2020-12-04 13:20               ` hiro
2020-12-05  9:12                 ` Lucio De Re
2020-12-05 22:25       ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans
2020-12-06  3:56         ` Lucio De Re
2020-12-07  4:45           ` Devon H. O'Dell
2020-12-06 19:52         ` Ethan Gardener
2020-12-07  4:28           ` Lucio De Re
2020-11-18  2:34 ` [9fans] " ori

9fans - fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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