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Tue, 14 May 2024 21:41:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4FB3A3BB-1CFA-4BC7-9DC2-CC9138B8325C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4FB3A3BB-1CFA-4BC7-9DC2-CC9138B8325C@gmail.com> From: Lucio De Re Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 06:46:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000c8f229061876bcad Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 78678f18-1275-11ef-9c5b-84b7ff8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQzZGMwYzkzMDM5YTdkMi1NYzExNDNkNDA4NTRlNWQ4YzUzN2Yz?= =?UTF-8?B?Njk4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc1143d40854e5d8c537f3698:1:uIuGXxdYNet6DwGJ5pKbKQrt09uml8t0FJ8uni8uGbA --000000000000c8f229061876bcad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy learning, at our country's expense. I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical" version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment. My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough? I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy. Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me, so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort, but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost or teetering on edge of the abyss. As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum that support my impressions, I want to look at bringing "the other Fossil" on board using PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. Don't hold your breath, though. One more point, but I may raise more later, seeing that there is a claimed interest in how others use the generic Plan 9 platform: I long ago ported the OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and I continually use them to access remote directories with them from a scrappy rc shell script. I noted only recently that the OpenLDAP distribution has an option to build only the tools and library, which vindicates my approach which happened rather serendipitously. I need to investigate that further, my version of the tool I think goes back to 2.3 or thereabouts. Graphviz I have also been unable to promote past a very early version, but it works quite nicely for my occasional use of Dot. Let me point out also that I have paid absolutely no attention to licencing requirements; where I live the culture remains that of "sanction busting" from the Apartheid era and IP prosecutions don't seem to occur very often. I do think that P9F would be kept quite busy assisting those of us that may need legal advice or assistance and in some respects I think that role would be beneficial to all of us - including myself - and it seems a role that P9F is already playing. Just my impression, of course, but earlier discussion does bring that to mind. In short: I totally agree with Ian, we are responsible for what and how gets discussed here. Lucio. On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:20=E2=80=AFAM michaelian ennis wrote: > > > > On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaronde@kergis.com wrote: > > M > > This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month". >=20 > There were many lessons from =E2=80=9CThe Mythical Man Month=E2=80=9D tha= t seem glaringly > missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. The= re > were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process. >=20 > I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right > place. Perhaps it is not my place at all. >=20 > The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled > with an unlimited supply of =E2=80=9CWait, we=E2=80=99re doing what?=E2= =80=9D moments. Yes I=E2=80=99m > looking at you boombox. >=20 > What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on > different coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent > discussions=E2=80=99 beginnings. This didn=E2=80=99t help win arguments a= bout product > direction. >=20 > Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which > the cli was inconsistent, full of =E2=80=9Cwe should=E2=80=9Ds and =E2=80= =9Cwe shouldn=E2=80=99t=E2=80=9Ds and > noticing when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So there= =E2=80=99s > that. >=20 > In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived > but they are not ones where where new voices weren=E2=80=99t heard or old= ones > were ignored. >=20 > The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to > me. It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive. >=20 > I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative > conversations. Nobody joins this list who isn=E2=80=99t interested in > participating somehow. Let=E2=80=99s not shut them down. >=20 > Ian >=20 --=20 Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mc1143= d40854e5d8c537f3698 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000c8f229061876bcad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If this comes across as a troll, keep in = mind that it is your interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Afr= icans are still busy learning, at our country's expense.

I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those = who prodded me (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a &qu= ot;canonical" version rather than at least two varieties as appears to= be the case from the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the mo= ment.

My point all along was that if the source (Fossi= l or other) is not included in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision = is being made by arbitrary (non)contributors for all the silent participant= s who may not even know about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn= 9;t Google bad enough?

I concede that I didn'= ;t know myself what I was looking for (I think what "I" need is f= or 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick on any PC ha= rdware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my rather vague qu= estion was intended to make the details less sketchy. Instead, I got a tira= de about what I was or was not ready, willing or able to contribute. Fortun= ately, that tends to have the desired effect with me, so right now I haven&= #39;t yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort, but I know I can= do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost or teetering on e= dge of the abyss.

As for the cryptography angle,= that was an eye opener for sure and for many, apparently. On my part, I st= ill don't have SSH2 working from my own Plan 9 "legacy", I ha= ven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of 9legacy patches in= to it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely and I know I = came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version of ssh-agent = working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both Linux and NetB= SD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and I haven't= had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from G= it, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable with= it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum that = support my impressions, I want to look at bringing "the other Fos= sil" on board using PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedde= d SQLite. Don't hold your breath, though.

On= e more point, but I may raise more later, seeing that there is a claimed in= terest in how others use the generic Plan 9 platform: I long ago ported the= OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and I continually use them to access remote direc= tories with them from a scrappy rc shell script. I noted only recently that= the OpenLDAP distribution has an option to build only the tools and librar= y, which vindicates my approach which happened rather serendipitously. I ne= ed to investigate that further, my version of the tool I think goes back to= 2.3 or thereabouts. Graphviz I have also been unable to promote past a ver= y early version, but it works quite nicely for my occasional use of Dot.

Let me point out also that I have paid absolutely = no attention to licencing requirements; where I live the culture remains th= at of "sanction busting" from the Apartheid era and IP prosecutio= ns don't seem to occur very often. I do think that P9F would be kept qu= ite busy assisting those of us that may need legal advice or assistance and= in some respects I think that role would be beneficial to all of us - incl= uding myself - and it seems a role that P9F is already playing. Just my imp= ression, of course, but earlier discussion does bring that to mind.

In short: I totally agree with Ian, we are responsible = for what and how gets discussed here.

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:20 AM michaelian ennis <michaelian.ennis@gmail.com> wrote= :


> On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaronde@kergis.com wrote:
> M
> This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".
There were many lessons from “The Mythical Man Month” that seem= glaringly missing from management decisions during those days. It was shoc= king. There were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making = process. 

I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right place.= Perhaps it is not my place at all.

The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled w= ith an unlimited supply of “Wait, we’re doing what?” mome= nts. Yes I’m looking at you boombox.

What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on different= coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent discussions&= rsquo; beginnings. This didn’t help win arguments about product direc= tion.

Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which = the cli was inconsistent, full of “we should”s and “we sh= ouldn’t”s and noticing when I was right in dissent more than wh= en I was wrong. So there’s that.

In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived
but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old one= s were ignored.

The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to = me.  It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive.

I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative conversation= s.  Nobody joins this list who isn’t interested in participating= somehow.  Let’s not shut them down.

Ian





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--
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
= Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 = 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
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