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Fri, 10 May 2024 02:07:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <53b297f4-31d4-48fd-86f4-6b5c2393edc0@app.fastmail.com> <84aa1c7f-1f39-43eb-81a2-b73cc432196a@app.fastmail.com> <528ac9a8-92be-43a3-b531-db09ce0d6cae@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Lucio De Re Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 11:07:16 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000073bd5c061815dd70 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: be8aa70e-0eac-11ef-8f3d-ad257f264264 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NNjFmY2Y5ZmVjZGQyN2UzOThkMmNi?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2E5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M61fcf9fecdd27e398d2cbca9:1:kK0EGvCGRJ-fbynptahNsivXHwGUSOZJSA6GoVrAnDM --00000000000073bd5c061815dd70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vic, > I'm exploring whether there's interest in more collaboration. It would be beneficial to focus on critiquing ideas rather than individuals. The assertion of one's individuality and superiority is generational; what the proponents of that attitude are missing is that it is also a self-defeating approach. I think that you have pointed out the correct weakness in your original post, there has been too little recognition of the contributions made by the 9front developers to the legacy (with a lower case "L") of Plan 9. It led to resentment (I know a lot about resentment in post-Apartheid South Africa!) and the inevitable divisions. Even a well-reasoned description of the situation elicits ad hominem criticism. I'm finding it ironic, though, that the defenders of the true 9front faith find it necessary to insult their "enemies" in a forum dedicated to the very subject matter they are so disapproving of. Surely they realise that 9fans is a stupid place to do so? Lucio. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 10:49=E2=80=AFAM wrote: > Thanks! I=E2=80=99ve been practicing my impersonation. Want to hear my hu= man > impression next? > > The goal of writing is to articulate ideas in a clear and comprehensive > manner. If I were unclear, I apologize. I realize that reading a lengthy > post can be a bit demanding on your time. Thank you for your patience. > I'll make an effort to keep my posts shorter and to the point. I could ha= ve > written it in the following way, but it seemed less expressive. > > "Plan 9 4th Edition serves as a stable snapshot in time, while 9legacy is > an active distribution, and 9front has evolved significantly, bringing > modern advancements. Living in Japan, where older computers are > affordable, I appreciate maintaining support for these versions. > Accessible older systems allow hobbyists like me to enjoy tinkering witho= ut > the need for the latest technology. > > Updating and maintaining compatibility among Plan 9 4th Edition, 9legacy, > and 9front offers several benefits. It broadens hardware support, allowi= ng > users with older setups to benefit from new improvements. Incremental > upgrades help those preferring gradual changes to seamlessly integrate new > features. Such updates enhance community engagement, preserve the > educational value, ensure system security and stability, and accommodate > customization for unique setups. > > By updating all versions, we honor Plan 9's legacy while keeping it > relevant and accessible, fostering a community that values both innovation > and tradition. This approach supports diverse user needs and promotes a > vibrant, inclusive community." > > I'm exploring whether there's interest in more collaboration. It would be > beneficial to focus on critiquing ideas rather than individuals. > > Kind regards, > Vester "Vic" Thacker > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 16:33, Lallero wrote: > > Is it just me noticing this is chatgpt? > > > > Il 10 maggio 2024 06:44:48 CEST, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm ha scritto: > >>Hi Hiro et al, > >> > >>I view Plan 9 4th Edition as a version that remains largely unchanged, > serving as a snapshot in time, while 9legacy represents an active, distin= ct > distribution. Conversely, 9front is a fork that has evolved significantly > from Plan 9 4th Edition, making considerable advancements in recent years. > >> > >>I appreciate the push for modernization with 9front, but I also see > value in maintaining support for older versions like Plan 9 4th Edition a= nd > 9legacy. Living in Japan, I have access to inexpensive hardware=E2=80=94= local > computer resellers often offer older computers for as little as 2,000 yen > each (e.g. $12.85 USD). For about 8,000 yen, it is possible to set up a > functional Plan 9 system. This isn=E2=80=99t about leading the charge wi= th the > latest and greatest OS; it's about the joy of tinkering and making the mo= st > of accessible resources. For hobbyists like myself, the ability to use a= nd > experiment with older systems is invaluable. Maintaining some level of > support or compatibility in the community can enhance the inclusiveness a= nd > experimental spirit that is fundamental to Plan 9=E2=80=99s ethos. > >> > >>Maintaining updates and compatibility between Plan 9 4th Edition, > 9legacy, and 9front can provide several benefits, especially in a diverse > community like that of Plan 9. Here are some of the key advantages: > >> > >>(1) Broader Hardware Support: By keeping Plan 9 4th Edition and 9legacy > updated, users who rely on older or less common hardware configurations > that may not be fully supported by 9front can still benefit from updates > and improvements. This is particularly useful in academic or hobbyist > settings where newer hardware may not be readily available or economically > feasible. > >> > >>(2) Incremental Upgrades: Some users may prefer an incremental approach > to system upgrades rather than a complete switch to a newer version. > Integrating changes from 9front into 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition allows > these users to benefit from specific enhancements without the need to > overhaul their entire system setup. > >> > >>(3) Community Engagement: Keeping these versions updated helps engage > different segments of the Plan 9 community. It acknowledges the needs and > preferences of those who might prefer the familiarity of 9legacy or Plan 9 > 4th Edition, fostering a more inclusive and vibrant community. > >> > >>(4) Preservation of Educational and Historical Value: Plan 9 has > significant educational and historical importance in the field of operati= ng > systems. Maintaining and updating older versions ensures that this legacy > is preserved, allowing new generations of students and enthusiasts to lea= rn > from and experiment with these systems. > >> > >>(5) Security and Stability: Regular updates can address security > vulnerabilities and fix bugs across all versions, ensuring that even older > deployments remain secure and stable. This is crucial for maintaining the > integrity and usability of the systems over time. > >> > >>(6) Customization: Some users or organizations might have customized > their systems based on older versions of Plan 9. Keeping these systems > updated with changes from 9front can provide a path for these custom setu= ps > to receive new features and improvements while maintaining their unique > configurations. > >> > >>Overall, the integration of updates across different versions of Plan 9 > can help keep the system modern, secure, and accessible to a wide range of > users, enhancing both its utility and appeal. > >> > >>In embracing both the new and preserving the old, we not only honor the > rich legacy of Plan 9 but also ensure its relevance and accessibility for > all users, regardless of their hardware or specific needs. By updating > 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition alongside 9front, we foster a community th= at > values progress and innovation while respecting and supporting the diverse > ways in which people interact with our beloved operating system. Together, > let's continue to build a welcoming and vibrant Plan 9 community that > thrives on both change and tradition. > >> > >>Kind regards, > >>Vester "Vic" Thacker > >> > >> > >>On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 04:50, hiro wrote: > >>> no clue which conflict you're seeing, vic. > >>> > >>> there's been some trolling back and forth since forever, there's been > >>> complaints and contributions, and more complaints about the > >>> contributions and the lack of contributions. as it should be. we can > >>> have one united community if you like but then i hope we still have > >>> those complaints. if no issues come up it just means that nobody used > >>> the system. > >>> > >>> personally i think non-dp9ik protocols should be removed completely or > >>> at the very least only allowed with very big fat warning messages. if > >>> 9legacy still doesn't have dp9ik, then why don't you just let 9legacy > >>> die? is there a single 9legacy-only improvement that's worth having in > >>> the first place? why does this discussion here even exist? if you want > >>> interoperability between things just upgrade everything to 9front. > >>> there's no more straightforward way, or? > >>> > >>> i know from linuxland where some garbage firmware or closed-source > >>> kernel driver prevents the use of newer linux releases, but i don't > >>> see similar problems in the 9front world at all. 9front provides a > >>> very steady and stable upgrade path i see no reason to keep an older > >>> plan9 4th edition system alive at all. what hardware does anybody have > >>> where 9front doesn't work but plan9 4th edition does?! > >>> > > > > -- > > Inviato dal mio dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Perdonate la brevit= =C3=A0. --=20 Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M61fcf= 9fecdd27e398d2cbca9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000073bd5c061815dd70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vic,
> I'm exploring whether there&= #39;s interest in more collaboration.  It would be beneficial to focus= on critiquing ideas rather than individuals.
The assertion of one'= s individuality and superiority is generational; what the proponents of tha= t attitude are missing is that it is also a self-defeating approach. I thin= k that you have pointed out the correct weakness in your original post, the= re has been too little recognition of the contributions made by the 9front = developers to the legacy (with a lower case "L") of Plan 9. It le= d to resentment (I know a lot about resentment in post-Apartheid South Afri= ca!) and the inevitable divisions. Even a well-reasoned description of the = situation elicits ad hominem criticism.

I&= #39;m finding it ironic, though, that the defenders of the true 9front fait= h find it necessary to insult their "enemies" in a forum dedicate= d to the very subject matter they are so disapproving of. Surely they reali= se that 9fans is a stupid place to do so?

Lucio.=


On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 10:49 AM <vic.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:=
Thanks! I&rsq= uo;ve been practicing my impersonation. Want to hear my human impression ne= xt?

The goal of writing is to articulate ideas in a clear and comprehensive man= ner.  If I were unclear, I apologize.  I realize that reading a l= engthy post can be a bit demanding on your time.  Thank you for your p= atience.  I'll make an effort to keep my posts shorter and to the = point. I could have written it in the following way, but it seemed less exp= ressive.

"Plan 9 4th Edition serves as a stable snapshot in time, while 9legacy= is an active distribution, and 9front has evolved significantly, bringing = modern advancements.  Living in Japan, where older computers are affor= dable, I appreciate maintaining support for these versions.  Accessibl= e older systems allow hobbyists like me to enjoy tinkering without the need= for the latest technology.

Updating and maintaining compatibility among Plan 9 4th Edition, 9legacy, a= nd 9front offers several benefits.  It broadens hardware support, allo= wing users with older setups to benefit from new improvements. Incremental = upgrades help those preferring gradual changes to seamlessly integrate new = features.  Such updates enhance community engagement, preserve the edu= cational value, ensure system security and stability, and accommodate custo= mization for unique setups.

By updating all versions, we honor Plan 9's legacy while keeping it rel= evant and accessible, fostering a community that values both innovation and= tradition.  This approach supports diverse user needs and promotes a = vibrant, inclusive community."

I'm exploring whether there's interest in more collaboration. = It would be beneficial to focus on critiquing ideas rather than individual= s.

Kind regards,
Vester "Vic" Thacker



On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 16:33, Lallero wrote:
> Is it just me noticing this is chatgpt?
>
> Il 10 maggio 2024 06:44:48 CEST, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm ha scritto:
>>Hi Hiro et al,
>>
>>I view Plan 9 4th Edition as a version that remains largely unchang= ed, serving as a snapshot in time, while 9legacy represents an active, dist= inct distribution. Conversely, 9front is a fork that has evolved significan= tly from Plan 9 4th Edition, making considerable advancements in recent yea= rs.
>>
>>I appreciate the push for modernization with 9front, but I also see= value in maintaining support for older versions like Plan 9 4th Edition an= d 9legacy.  Living in Japan, I have access to inexpensive hardware&mda= sh;local computer resellers often offer older computers for as little as 2,= 000 yen each (e.g. $12.85 USD).  For about 8,000 yen, it is possible t= o set up a functional Plan 9 system.  This isn’t about leading t= he charge with the latest and greatest OS; it's about the joy of tinker= ing and making the most of accessible resources.  For hobbyists like m= yself, the ability to use and experiment with older systems is invaluable.&= nbsp; Maintaining some level of support or compatibility in the community c= an enhance the inclusiveness and experimental spirit that is fundamental to= Plan 9’s ethos.
>>
>>Maintaining updates and compatibility between Plan 9 4th Edition, 9= legacy, and 9front can provide several benefits, especially in a diverse co= mmunity like that of Plan 9.  Here are some of the key advantages:
>>
>>(1) Broader Hardware Support:  By keeping Plan 9 4th Edition a= nd 9legacy updated, users who rely on older or less common hardware configu= rations that may not be fully supported by 9front can still benefit from up= dates and improvements.  This is particularly useful in academic or ho= bbyist settings where newer hardware may not be readily available or econom= ically feasible.
>>
>>(2) Incremental Upgrades:  Some users may prefer an incrementa= l approach to system upgrades rather than a complete switch to a newer vers= ion. Integrating changes from 9front into 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition al= lows these users to benefit from specific enhancements without the need to = overhaul their entire system setup.
>>
>>(3) Community Engagement:  Keeping these versions updated help= s engage different segments of the Plan 9 community.  It acknowledges = the needs and preferences of those who might prefer the familiarity of 9leg= acy or Plan 9 4th Edition, fostering a more inclusive and vibrant community= .
>>
>>(4) Preservation of Educational and Historical Value:  Plan 9 = has significant educational and historical importance in the field of opera= ting systems.  Maintaining and updating older versions ensures that th= is legacy is preserved, allowing new generations of students and enthusiast= s to learn from and experiment with these systems.
>>
>>(5) Security and Stability:  Regular updates can address secur= ity vulnerabilities and fix bugs across all versions, ensuring that even ol= der deployments remain secure and stable.  This is crucial for maintai= ning the integrity and usability of the systems over time.
>>
>>(6) Customization:  Some users or organizations might have cus= tomized their systems based on older versions of Plan 9.  Keeping thes= e systems updated with changes from 9front can provide a path for these cus= tom setups to receive new features and improvements while maintaining their= unique configurations.
>>
>>Overall, the integration of updates across different versions of Pl= an 9 can help keep the system modern, secure, and accessible to a wide rang= e of users, enhancing both its utility and appeal.
>>
>>In embracing both the new and preserving the old, we not only honor= the rich legacy of Plan 9 but also ensure its relevance and accessibility = for all users, regardless of their hardware or specific needs. By updating = 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition alongside 9front, we foster a community that= values progress and innovation while respecting and supporting the diverse= ways in which people interact with our beloved operating system. Together,= let's continue to build a welcoming and vibrant Plan 9 community that = thrives on both change and tradition.
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>Vester "Vic" Thacker
>>
>>
>>On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 04:50, hiro wrote:
>>> no clue which conflict you're seeing, vic.
>>>
>>> there's been some trolling back and forth since forever, t= here's been
>>> complaints and contributions, and more complaints about the >>> contributions and the lack of contributions. as it should be. = we can
>>> have one united community if you like but then i hope we still= have
>>> those complaints. if no issues come up it just means that nobo= dy used
>>> the system.
>>>
>>> personally i think non-dp9ik protocols should be removed compl= etely or
>>> at the very least only allowed with very big fat warning messa= ges. if
>>> 9legacy still doesn't have dp9ik, then why don't you j= ust let 9legacy
>>> die? is there a single 9legacy-only improvement that's wor= th having in
>>> the first place? why does this discussion here even exist? if = you want
>>> interoperability between things just upgrade everything to 9fr= ont.
>>> there's no more straightforward way, or?
>>>
>>> i know from linuxland where some garbage firmware or closed-so= urce
>>> kernel driver prevents the use of newer linux releases, but i = don't
>>> see similar problems in the 9front world at all. 9front provid= es a
>>> very steady and stable upgrade path i see no reason to keep an= older
>>> plan9 4th edition system alive at all. what hardware does anyb= ody have
>>> where 9front doesn't work but plan9 4th edition does?!
>>>
>
> --
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Perdonate la brevit&= agrave;.

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--
Lucio De Re
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