From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7816 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2021 04:06:30 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 24 Jun 2021 04:06:30 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F1229FF9 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 00:06:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mMe1fe9703569c5c6466229207.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 4E3442A42820; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 00:06:29 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=aw9AKeH7 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=lucio.dere@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:list-help:list-id:list-post :list-subscribe:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1624507589; bh=4cttGrlavM/oBPl8 XseCMs/XMHzg6bctcnRzZP37/Zg=; b=L4Vbw2NxFMUpir/payR3x+uhQW8mpqW8 j8VMBpE/loomYnjHlhTgiQHasMrCJWmAv/atVd8j1fXMJ6dgFSQDsE45L4T/yin8 QVZ1+f3weeqT2a5VlYosRQ1bFD1nAhIY2wZ0sQR1qXFn+MAZUIgFIvNT1qYTNt9n HRpu2tFLyV4= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1624507589; b=nl57WqTT4QVoIzMcELvwox7EjdYQVsjoPKOa6zYNHpx6h7NJ4p HcSPv7GJ/Yi/mZ+NSFT/shmhOV4DbyvU6O8tKJy/TwWHiGETQv93Ohdnj+bLiRuF 9gkkGwpC7wvmGA1EcHC+/Ydto/3/0UZukZjWmtMumevMf4G0YeUCOGaP8= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=aw9AKeH7 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=lucio.dere@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=aw9AKeH7 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.208.177 (mail-lj1-f177.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=lucio.dere@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=bGiuKE1X; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com policy.ptr=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject :to:content-type:list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe :reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=z7GEEzKKlgCzFChT7Vag02yPTlIbC18q3hSl7wrEY1U=; b=NsdfHYpwrVyG bqDo1i75/8UvTa1vpmgMCNZIGAiK/AHDVyPcwb8mZPOz7pirveCAFCR+21cDTttt yvqa4rws/nU65xP4WJEHBAJhz9m2SWzlebYmSUYJtyUv35Bq8rK12e3F6AwyZcW8 m1trjIzeA7F+nf2XGT6Cm6TN6NmuXs8= Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDD848E7A36 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 00:06:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lucio.dere@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 3E74CC4369E; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 00:06:16 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1624507576; b=ycwDjA1AXMDSZoiHX4HEmDPGY/KrzQnKMBH51pWlRAN5m3UbES mqqk0LNBIOjG4lNz27wi2y4EZliWdLnyrh4AxpxKjwenc03aGmNDgx5vvezTJcin 81x7L5OoCv0UvJTgMYo8zHRw9ZVxjtKw8ftgjbr8+aTD2tHVGtC01nWHuwkBxc9v /jPduU5VCvsL6LOhH55LnxDxV6Yi0l6JZoRIW8aNfWxk11Duu2CSIZZ9p8sI9ySk 6iuuaiKxxzh0YKxAnrK+mw07LheB8duMyPyAjluAKEnhwDf3ca3L1TEfci74twDo skdCQ0m3IQdCncME/ihCjvqmG96g4CdeLuWQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; s=arcseal; t=1624507576; bh=boQWS40LC8HDX8sDaKcMUBqQHKYF1l4GZW/nQeKlrII=; b=enxYHrZpKHPR Go43jLLU1r3krZDrMq+qWDxV3yB5cg+NxDvK8Z90f6DX9zqLdsfwNpoeZqQtszim ilfGfOsjjSLgIrvxh6FLcEQIZENFjCKb+xMBTxsZgTrcU9NipWJaKg3E4ncVmvV4 JYaNAhZBy6CqaGnf0sB8evloo4yAPQwbKA2ch40CoP0s/OSyvSBlkF2uLXcuM4Co 845TZ4Soz10Xm38XpX9GPMrMSmEY0BddImIAR1NfYz+dZyLOAyzxhpN62K+n7nIS mMVsCcTQytDAeTlh3eFrAA8y/OJDLwfXL+8iDVsfL7LbnT5J4X7nNvVJVKIgcUWf 7zDx7YQaCQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=aw9AKeH7 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20161025 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.208.177 (mail-lj1-f177.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=lucio.dere@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=bGiuKE1X; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com policy.ptr=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeeggedgtdelucdltddurdegudehrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucenucfjughrpegjfhfhfffkuffvtgesthdtredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepnfhutghi ohcuffgvucftvgcuoehluhgtihhordguvghrvgesghhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuggftrf grthhtvghrnhepffdvgeeikeettdekhfehvdehveehtefhhfdthfejgedtudduieehledt feefiedvnecukfhppedvtdelrdekhedrvddtkedrudejjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedvtdelrdekhedrvddtkedrudejjedphhgvlhho pehmrghilhdqlhhjuddqfhdujeejrdhgohhoghhlvgdrtghomhdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe eolhhutghiohdruggvrhgvsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqe X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'lucio.dere@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="lucio.dere@gmail.com"; helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; client-ip=209.85.208.177 Received: from mail-lj1-f177.google.com (mail-lj1-f177.google.com [209.85.208.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 00:06:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lucio.dere@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id a16so5874812ljq.3 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 21:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=boQWS40LC8HDX8sDaKcMUBqQHKYF1l4GZW/nQeKlrII=; b=bGiuKE1XiaTyREJk/pf1kTuTgsiX32sIdiKxDDhtQ1WTifQ8bhAeNF7Kb+fPg7PEbD KigvJEQS1D1AVAZIUoaBaA/GEwpVQy9PVzm4r2qYrv9FAGVXibTBb2X3XoSSUO5mHpz5 bJwzM7ue5wrujfQe/O4N5r0xLQXdcYzdedjYMXp3AWu0ujxqiwha45O6pZrRsDEKy6zs W8FrC7HUMZmjSqZVADUmpD9WCpyh5PxepdvS4fTWH/Lif2iN+pu3TuMXeQv0Ren9OR5o v7PRWlY3KDbBUBmXVYVuLV6TP9/NryuxSouVb7XqvjfpNlgdcl0WdS9zj/Tngc2zLJ1T BZBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533eW68ZnUKw0zcJRwRuem/2vo4731H/0UamaB44YguWAh+RPe/J TA3T2yodmNqC7qupuJbTDITSs6r4l6F5Op8YLcPf8kJh X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqiat22S5+LqxnTCz26cHXN0AfL80FRftVK0ZxWx1bt5O6eaiKPZ/nUjsZct0RA5k3D3ICk0VKD1n8Q4NRacc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:210b:: with SMTP id a11mr2245996ljq.240.1624507574417; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 21:06:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:8755:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 21:06:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Lucio De Re Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 06:06:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] p9f mention of 9front To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8881bee2-d4a1-11eb-a3aa-a45639f3c2e6 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNTIzZDZlOTA2YTE3YTdjYy1NZTFmZTk3MDM1NjljNWM2NDY2MjI5?= =?UTF-8?B?MjA3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Me1fe9703569c5c6466229207:1:eZdUusiXMWNHIw5N_H_14oDtK8SMPG0aEDvB3GaUC28 Eish! I really can't resist, can I? On 6/24/21, Romano wrote: > [...] But I'm a nobody, so I'm probably not going to persuade > anyone. > Let me try and keep this short, but it won't be easy. Firstly, this is not intended as an offence, particularly against Romano, it is merely an alert against our poorly understood "human nature". The sentiment implied in the sentence above is a bare-faced lie. Romano, you need not defend it, I utter lies like this daily, multiple times, and I spend my time mostly in solitude :-). Thing is, we try hard to be tactful or diplomatic and fail to be convincing because we don't actually know how to respond to similar falsehoods directed at us. My own problem is that I have no scientific foundations for what follows, only personal experience in a context where multiple natural "languages" flow freely and misunderstandings are more the norm than the exception. Here, we continue to pay a high price for not having resolved this madness at birth. 9front got off on a bad footing, in my recollection more a generational clash than anything caused by one or more technical issue. Repairing the burnt bridges requires undoing all the antagonism that has been accumulated since, plus more than just a smidgen of technical savvy. But the emotional need for approval did lead to acrimony and acrimony led to the eventual 9 fork and today one can still run 2Ed applications on 9legacy (bar occasional mishaps - not that I can think of any), but not 9front applications without modification. That, is a very clear ring-fence. And it makes me quite sad, but realistically, it would take quite a lot of tolerance, effort and time to merge the two streams and something would undoubtably be lost in the process of compromising. Not least, there would be ego damage (I have my own skeletons I would not want to release from the cupboard next to the one implied above). The point of the above is simple: only a neutral party can put Plan/9/Front together again and there are more pressing issues for the average participant to address that stand firmly in the way. Harping on the politics is the wrong thing to do, eventually survival of the fittest is going to dictate the path that will be taken. And the fittest, accidentally or intentionally, in the current ecosystem, in my opinion is plan9port, at least until Torvalds stops dictating the path Linux takes: our culture can't resist a strong personality (that's the "cult" in "culture"), but also cannot survive without continuity, surprise, surprise. The democracy that may favour intellect over emotion needs to be an artifact able to adjust to changing contexts, consciously. The Plan 9 Foundation may or may not have that in its genome. Miller is a reminder that a port to a different architecture is the product of both individual genius (and, yes, Cinap does that, also, I don't mean to be disrespectful) and sound foundations. What Plan 9 needs is a Nemo to redo his analysis of 3Ed and offer a more modern version focused on Plan 9 as the glue between the MS-Windows/Apple user interface (based on a perceived and certainly not genuine security) and the scrappy Turing machines Intel and co-conspirators are foisting on us. And to be ready for the next generation of hardware that may prevent this generation producing an Atlantis-sized civilisation collapse. Of course, that's not to suggest this must be Nemo's retirement package, it means that the right calibre of humans must undertake to perform such an analysis to its completion. Lucio. PS: I would have liked to bring Minix-3 into the rant above, but I have yet to explore to my satisfaction what it really represents. Suffice it to say that it may be able to run p9p and that is rather an interesting curved ball. The other oddity is the smart mobile computer we like to call a "phone". Why is there no Plan 9 flavour running on at least some flavour of it? ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T523d6e906a17a7cc-Me1fe9= 703569c5c6466229207 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription