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Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:27:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:7606:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:27:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3cdfcd26-b11d-4140-a9fb-cae0304e6ca2@sirjofri.de> References: <16293151820.7F7690f.28382@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <3cdfcd26-b11d-4140-a9fb-cae0304e6ca2@sirjofri.de> From: Lucio De Re Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:27:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b1ca4b3e-00cf-11ec-9626-832e384640df Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NYzYwYmM3ODRiY2NhNWJiNWI2NTcx?= =?UTF-8?B?ODVhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc60bc784bcca5bb5b657185a:1:MjAXCdI8S3VmEdHZ6impWzZSQX_CyYkV0fEcyLQZ9q4 On 8/19/21, sirjofri wrote: > Hello dear community, > > I've read through many things in this thread and just want to add some > two cents in a list format: > > 1) p9f (to my knowledge) never said anything about The One Plan 9. This > was afaik the idea of some other community member, and I never heard any > statement by p9f about that. > Indeed correct. My suggestion started with a lobbying idea for useful concepts such as the addition of Oauth2 to factotum so that there could be some momentum rather than spurious hope for interest to incorporate "core" changes into whatever P9F consider their target OS. I am not a member of P9F, when I checked the membership I assumed that my participation as more than a spectator would not be welcome - personal reasons. So instead i thought that as a lobbyist within a framework, I could expect to have a less subjectively negative value, period. > 2) In fact, p9f is pretty silent, not only these days. This could be a > good sign, as they let community be what they are, only occasionally > taking part in it. > P9F owes no one anything. Some resources seem to have moved under their umbrella, contributed voluntarily. The licence change has been an important step forward. Again, approaching P9F in a public forum may or may not have a more positive impact. Like it or not, the foundation is operated by humans and historically active Plan 9 "fans" have behaved controversially. Not all, but a lot. > 3) the p9f website promotes links to the Plan 9 archive software (V1-V4), > 9legacy as "Plan 9 with many useful patches", the RPi version and other > Plan 9 resources. 9front is _never_ mentioned at all. It seems like they > don't consider 9front as a Plan 9 system at all. > That is true and only P9F can address that issue. Which does rather throw a spanner in Keith's complaints about me, because his claim is that P9F want to assimilate and dominate 9front, based on a very thin claim from me that I would be happier in a 1P9 universe. But let's not ad hominem unnecessarily. Incidentally, all contributions to 9legacy and/or mentioned as P9F resources are either inherited from Nokia (have I got that right?) or from individual members of P9F. As an afterthought, is it not obvious that 9front may be able to get a seat at the table if they contributed in a similar way? Is that possible? Has such an approach already been turned down? What do we know? > I don't know why, it's possible they just don't want it to exist or they > don't know how to see it. It just hurts me personally as a community > person who uses 9front and not the original Plan 9. And it's confusing. > Am I even a Plan 9 user? The core OS principles are the same and most > "shell" concepts also. > Totally. No one labels you a Plan 9 user, you do that yourself. There are subtle semantic issues with the original "9front" nomenclature and remote history. We've all grown up a lot since then, but part of growing up includes owning errors of judgement. We can, presumably, find our way forward without that baggage, maybe not. Opinions seem to vary (my own personal conflicts included) in this forum. > 4) The split between original Plan9/9legacy and the 9front fork is > reflected in a split between communities. David and the 9front core devs > already showed that they are generally willing to share and accept > patches and I never noticed any bad tone in their discussion, however the > community is split up. And I don't think that we are so big that we _had_ > to split up, there are other reasons, maybe historical reasons I don't > know as a "fresh" community member with only ~5 years. > As I mentioned elsewhere, there is what seems to me a well defined "9front inside circle", which basically seems to include, by default or by choice, everyone that uses 9front as their primary (Plan 9) platform. Vocal defenders of 9front all appear to carry virtual membership cards to this circle. And in case I am once again misunderstood, I think that is a very important and positive aspect of the 9front community. As a pale-skinned South African (European descent), I am also deemed to carry a membership card to some kind of circle, so I'm not incompetent to address this aspect. What seems to be harped upon by the vocal defenders of 9front, however, is this fictional idea that there is another community, let's call them "9legacy", that is attempting to subvert 9front's efforts to gain some kind of recognition in the bigger picture. I know no one whose preference, like mine, is to stick closer to the 9legacy release of Plan 9, who in some way wants to reduce the value of 9front. Just as OP points out, cooperation between David and Cinap and colleagues has been cordial, if occasionally confrontational, for many, many years. So Hiro and Kurt and others can be scratchy and no doubt so can I, I don't think any of us have done any permanent damage to the 9fans or the narrower 9front community. Hmm, there has been some damage, quite a way back, now that I think about it, but that goes back a long, long way, when discord was more fierce and emotional and 9front hadn't yet found its own identity. So what I'm saying is that 9fans exists, it IS a community; 9front (the OS) has its own community that overlaps in part with 9fans; 9legacy (the code) has users, individuals, mostly, who may ignore 9front, but cannot possibly be accused in any real sense of participating in a counter-9front conspiracy. If there is any evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. I'll refrain from elaborating on motives and other unprovable details. > 5) I really wished p9f would tell us more about their plans. It really > seems like it's what we (9gridchan chat) feared in the beginning: a > secret society. p9f is very silent, currently only seems to manage GSoC > and nothing more. They told us they needed time to organize GSoC and > themselves, but that was in january/february! > I think P9F has performed the most important duties they set themselves: they are providing a useful umbrella to protect Plan 9-related resources from becoming extinct and have modernised the Plan 9 software licence to protect Plan 9 from being hi-jacked by hostile groups. Do you think anything else is required of them? As for the issue of Plan 9's "name", I agree with Keith that 9front may take exception at being left out of the Plan 9 nomenclature and I think it is up to the 9front community to approach P9F to negotiate what should be the final outcome. I have no idea what it means for 9front to be or not to be a "Plan 9" and, off-hand, I bet no one else in this forum has considered this a relevant issue. But maybe it should be and whereas "Plan 9" is some kind of intellectual property owned by P9F, 9front may be welcome to use it. In fact, there is some thin ice there, so 9front may well want to investigate this and approach P9F for clarification, before P9F makes a decision that may not go down well with everyone. > It's fine if they want to be silent, but it would be nice to see what we > can expect from them. Currently it seems like they just want to share > links to 9legacy and the archive and organize GSoC and hide the fact that > 9front exists. > How do you "hide a fact"? Are you also infected with that conspiracy theory? And what would P9F possibly gain from such an absurd stance? 9front appears 11 times (5 or so distinct entries) in the Plan 9 wikipedia page. I guess the "authors" may be able to remove these references, but would it not be better if the 9front community chose to create a wikipedia entry for themselves? That said, if there was a conspiracy, would the conspirators not have already wiped out 9front from a wikipedia page over which they presumably have some level of authority? > 6) p9f had a page about their purpose. It was like, they want to promote > all Plan 9 systems and related technologies: 9atom, 9legacy, ... missing > the (apparently) most obvious one: 9front. I couldn't find the page > anymore. Other dubious sources can be found on the 9front /who/ site > about p9f, where they apparently stole resources from 9front/cat-v pages. > Very suspicious somehow. > Skip is a P9F member. Perhaps he'd care to comment? If accusations of intellectual property "theft" have any validity (or none), this may well be a great place to air them. > 7) To clarify: I don't want to see p9f as bad. I want to see them as a > nice organization which is open for community efforts that need some > official site. I want to see other community members/devs there, maybe > one 9front contributor. I want to see them mentioning 9front like they > mention other Plan 9 projects. I want to see p9f members open their > mouths sometimes (which does happen) and take part in the community. > You get to see in the P9F what you contributed to, no more, nor less than anyone else. I won't bore anyone with a rant. > These are my wishes and notes, everything from my perspective. > > sirjofri > Thank you for raising them. As I said up front, I am not a P9F member of any kind. But I know that its intentions are far less nefarious than of those who wittingly ascribe nefarious intentions to them. Again, 9front has an "inside", get it to address with P9F their and your reservations. If they don't respond, then you and other 9fronters can bring evidence of ill intentions to this forum. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-Mc60bc= 784bcca5bb5b657185a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription