[9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[mycroftiv]

John Floren wrote:
> But can you cut it out with the fucking nuclear meltdowns all over
> this list? And fix your email client so it replies to threads
> properly?

No, I am not giving up, and I am going to take this a lot further.  In
fact, it is very clear to me what the absolute purpose of my life is.
I believe my father died too early, that he left "unfinished business"
in his life as a Law Professor.  He didn't like what had become of
Patent and IP law.  He didn't like seeing how it was being abused.
And I guarantee that he would NOT like the situation that his son is
in vis-a-vis IBM.

So I am dedicating my life to this in a public way, and I am going to
dedicate every penny of money from my father's inheritance to fighting
the patent bs that I see in Plan 9.  I am going to use my father's
money to try to carry on the work that i believe he wished he would
have done had he still lived - trying to make a difference in changing
the patent system.

If my father was alive and not sick, I think he'd be writing academic
papers attacking the kinds of patent BS engaged in by IBM and others.
He's not, so I will do what I can - and so I intend to start
researching all Plan 9/9P related patents, and then attempting an
individual effort to fight them and have them invalidated in court.

Maybe nobody wants to use ANTS, but I am sure it has plenty of ideas
in it that are about the same as those which get patented by large
corporations.  I don't any of this stuff patented.  Since I've just
released ANTS it forms a body of prior art (and is based on projects
on sources going back to 2009) so I am going to investigate every
patent I can find in this area, and then see if a crazy guy in a
basementy can actually mount an effective attack on the
Patent-Industrial complex.

I really admire you Mr. Floren, your work on 9p streams is one of the
best papers done on Plan 9 with practical value.  Why don't you see
that I am an honest programmer working in an honest way to try to make
the world a better place?  Everything I do is trying to help the human
race survive and for human beings to be happy and care for one
another.

I love you, and I wish you to be my friend, John Floren.

Peace and Love,
Ben Kidwell
"mycroftiv"

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Nick LaForge]

Plan 9 was (and perhaps always will be?) ahead of it's time.  In
addition, though, it's really the minimalist aesthetic that has made
it far outlast most other academic software.  All that intelligent
thought really did work to drastically raise the signal to noise ratio
of every aspect of the system (e.g., its literate style of code, the
high ratio of good ideas to lines of code, and that everything hangs
so well together).

You'd certainly get a more resonant response if you too were to
increase the SnR  -- of your messages (perhaps by taking some of Plan
9's minimalism to heart).  As of now, you could probably make the
analogy that your emails have been to GNU cat as everyone else's are
to /sys/src/cmd/cat.c.

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 1:14 PM,  <mycroftiv@sphericalharmony.com> wrote:
> John Floren wrote:
>> But can you cut it out with the fucking nuclear meltdowns all over
>> this list? And fix your email client so it replies to threads
>> properly?
>
> No, I am not giving up, and I am going to take this a lot further.  In
> fact, it is very clear to me what the absolute purpose of my life is.
> I believe my father died too early, that he left "unfinished business"
> in his life as a Law Professor.  He didn't like what had become of
> Patent and IP law.  He didn't like seeing how it was being abused.
> And I guarantee that he would NOT like the situation that his son is
> in vis-a-vis IBM.
>
> So I am dedicating my life to this in a public way, and I am going to
> dedicate every penny of money from my father's inheritance to fighting
> the patent bs that I see in Plan 9.  I am going to use my father's
> money to try to carry on the work that i believe he wished he would
> have done had he still lived - trying to make a difference in changing
> the patent system.
>
> If my father was alive and not sick, I think he'd be writing academic
> papers attacking the kinds of patent BS engaged in by IBM and others.
> He's not, so I will do what I can - and so I intend to start
> researching all Plan 9/9P related patents, and then attempting an
> individual effort to fight them and have them invalidated in court.
>
> Maybe nobody wants to use ANTS, but I am sure it has plenty of ideas
> in it that are about the same as those which get patented by large
> corporations.  I don't any of this stuff patented.  Since I've just
> released ANTS it forms a body of prior art (and is based on projects
> on sources going back to 2009) so I am going to investigate every
> patent I can find in this area, and then see if a crazy guy in a
> basementy can actually mount an effective attack on the
> Patent-Industrial complex.
>
> I really admire you Mr. Floren, your work on 9p streams is one of the
> best papers done on Plan 9 with practical value.  Why don't you see
> that I am an honest programmer working in an honest way to try to make
> the world a better place?  Everything I do is trying to help the human
> race survive and for human beings to be happy and care for one
> another.
>
> I love you, and I wish you to be my friend, John Floren.
>
> Peace and Love,
> Ben Kidwell
> "mycroftiv"
>

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 02:25:27PM -0700, Nick LaForge wrote:
>
> As of now, you could probably make the
> analogy that your emails have been to GNU cat as everyone else's are
> to /sys/src/cmd/cat.c.
>

I choose to interpret this to mean you think millions of people use
mycroft's messages every day, and only a select few individuals use
everyone else's messages, mostly on OS X.

khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Nick LaForge]

Content aside, the brevity of your message also supports the actual,
intended meaning of what I wrote.

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm-9@intma.in> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 02:25:27PM -0700, Nick LaForge wrote:
>>
>> As of now, you could probably make the
>> analogy that your emails have been to GNU cat as everyone else's are
>> to /sys/src/cmd/cat.c.
>>
>
> I choose to interpret this to mean you think millions of people use
> mycroft's messages every day, and only a select few individuals use
> everyone else's messages, mostly on OS X.
>
> khm
>
>

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 02:58:03PM -0700, Nick LaForge wrote:
> Content aside, the brevity of your message also supports the actual,
> intended meaning of what I wrote.
>

I begin to suspect 'content aside' is the prevailing attitude on 9fans.

khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Tassilo Philipp]

> John Floren wrote:
> > But can you cut it out with the fucking nuclear meltdowns all over
> > this list? And fix your email client so it replies to threads
> > properly?
>
> No, I am not giving up, and I am going to take this a lot further.

With all respect and appreciation for your mission - if you want to make the world a better place, do exactly what you did. Release free and open software, discuss ideas, get feedback, etc..
Writing in full-caps to 9fans won't make the world a better place, though.

"Do you see what happens, Larry?"

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[andrey mirtchovski]

> "Do you see what happens, Larry?"

when you find a stranger in the alps?

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> So I am dedicating my life to this in a public way, and I am going to
> dedicate every penny of money from my father's inheritance to fighting
> the patent bs that I see in Plan 9.  I am going to use my father's
> money to try to carry on the work that i believe he wished he would
> have done had he still lived - trying to make a difference in changing
> the patent system.

Of course it' s not my business. But think about it just a minute as a
conscious man. Any big corporation has much more resources than you
could possibly have. They will skin you alive. Didn't your father told
you to never, ever argue with their lawyers? If you wish to make the
world better, then make a charity or something. But not destroy your
life and the life of your relatives, it won't make the world any
better.

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

If you didn't already know, then it could tell you something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:54:20AM +0200, vvs009@gmail.com wrote:
> If you didn't already know, then it could tell you something:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
>

All this tells us is that wealth doesn't cure clinical depression.

khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> All this tells us is that wealth doesn't cure clinical depression.

I wasn't aware that he was suffering from it. Any evidence?

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Calvin Morrison]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --]

On 18 March 2013 09:34, <vvs009@gmail.com> wrote:

> > All this tells us is that wealth doesn't cure clinical depression.
>
> I wasn't aware that he was suffering from it. Any evidence?
>
>
The government killed him. Now put on your tin foil hats and march in
single file.

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Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 03:34:38PM +0200, vvs009@gmail.com wrote:
> > All this tells us is that wealth doesn't cure clinical depression.
>
> I wasn't aware that he was suffering from it. Any evidence?
>

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/verysick

Glad you're looking into this.  Let me know what you find out.


khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/verysick
>
> Glad you're looking into this.  Let me know what you find out.

Being sick and feeling depressed because of it isn't considered as
"clinical". There should be better evidence than that. And it misses a
point: there is no evidence, that if there weren't unsubstantiated
criminal charges involved, it would happen at all.

> The government killed him.

Well, there is such thing as "negligent homicide". So, in that sense, yes.

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Devon H. O'Dell]

2013/3/18  <vvs009@gmail.com>:
>> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/verysick
>>
>> Glad you're looking into this.  Let me know what you find out.
>
> Being sick and feeling depressed because of it isn't considered as
> "clinical". There should be better evidence than that. And it misses a
> point: there is no evidence, that if there weren't unsubstantiated
> criminal charges involved, it would happen at all.

Your argument is unfalsifiable. There is no evidence that if it hadn't
happened, it wouldn't have happened at all, other than the fact he
hadn't killed himself before he killed himself.

It is also reductio ad absurdum. Plenty of people are charged for
crimes they did not commit (and he was not innocent), and they do not
kill themselves.

If you're going to argue a point, don't resort to logical fallacies.

>> The government killed him.
>
> Well, there is such thing as "negligent homicide". So, in that sense, yes.

He broke laws. Was the case against him absurd? Sure. Was the sought
after punishment way harsher than the crime? I think so. Does that
make anyone other than him responsible for him killing himself? No.

That all said, since when is this antsfans@antsfans.net? Or
aaronswarzfans@aaronswartzfans.net? It's bad enough that it's
effectively anythingrelatedto@9fans.net, but this shit is nuts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unsubscribe if I don't like it. I might.

--dho

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> Your argument is unfalsifiable. There is no evidence that if it hadn't
> happened, it wouldn't have happened at all, other than the fact he
> hadn't killed himself before he killed himself.

You are right of course. And you should note, that the opposite is
unfalsifiable also. But the scientific method is unapplicable here
because we will never know for sure anyway.

> It is also reductio ad absurdum. Plenty of people are charged for
> crimes they did not commit (and he was not innocent), and they do not
> kill themselves.

Yes, that is true also. But I didn't argue that there is substantial
evidence that it was the cause. I just saying that in my "opinion"
they bear the "moral" responsibility for his death. Nobody is going to
push charges against them in court on these grounds.

> He broke laws. Was the case against him absurd? Sure. Was the sought
> after punishment way harsher than the crime? I think so.

I agree with that part.

> Does that
> make anyone other than him responsible for him killing himself? No.

I strongly disagree here. They abused their authority and broke public
trust which might resulted in loss of life. Are you trying to say that
nobody should be held responsible for the consequences of their
actions? And they were advised that it could cause harm to his health,
but chose not to act responsibly. If that's not enough for you, that's
enough for me.

> since when is this antsfans@ant...

You are right and it's off-topic. But I didn't started it and if you
chose to publicly argue with what I said before then I have the right
to respond to your criticism, don't I? Or is it a one way avenue?

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Matthew Veety]

On Mar 18, 2013, at 12:51, vvs009@gmail.com wrote:

>> Your argument is unfalsifiable. There is no evidence that if it hadn't
>> happened, it wouldn't have happened at all, other than the fact he
>> hadn't killed himself before he killed himself.
>
> You are right of course. And you should note, that the opposite is
> unfalsifiable also. But the scientific method is unapplicable here
> because we will never know for sure anyway.
>
>> It is also reductio ad absurdum. Plenty of people are charged for
>> crimes they did not commit (and he was not innocent), and they do not
>> kill themselves.
>
> Yes, that is true also. But I didn't argue that there is substantial
> evidence that it was the cause. I just saying that in my "opinion"
> they bear the "moral" responsibility for his death. Nobody is going to
> push charges against them in court on these grounds.
>
>> He broke laws. Was the case against him absurd? Sure. Was the sought
>> after punishment way harsher than the crime? I think so.
>
> I agree with that part.
>
>> Does that
>> make anyone other than him responsible for him killing himself? No.
>
> I strongly disagree here. They abused their authority and broke public
> trust which might resulted in loss of life. Are you trying to say that
> nobody should be held responsible for the consequences of their
> actions? And they were advised that it could cause harm to his health,
> but chose not to act responsibly. If that's not enough for you, that's
> enough for me.
>
>> since when is this antsfans@ant...
>
> You are right and it's off-topic. But I didn't started it and if you
> chose to publicly argue with what I said before then I have the right
> to respond to your criticism, don't I? Or is it a one way avenue?
>

How lovely. This is devolving to hn level masturbation about Aaron Schwartz.

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 04:46:59PM +0200, vvs009@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Being sick and feeling depressed because of it isn't considered as
> "clinical". There should be better evidence than that. And it misses a
> point: there is no evidence, that if there weren't unsubstantiated
> criminal charges involved, it would happen at all.

So your thesis here is that mycroft may kill himself if someone files
criminal charges against him for using plan 9?

>
> Well, there is such thing as "negligent homicide". So, in that sense, yes.
>

It's refreshing to be reminded that even 9fans is a part of the
internet, where people talk about shit they don't fully understand.
Thanks for your valuable insight.

khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> So your thesis here is that mycroft may kill himself if someone files
> criminal charges against him for using plan 9?

That's nonsense. It was meant as an example of someone who ruined his
life by engaging in unwise activities. Sapienti sat.

> It's refreshing to be reminded that even 9fans is a part of the
> internet, where people talk about shit they don't fully understand.
> Thanks for your valuable insight.

You're welcome. This list is sure full of politeness and kindness. Not
that I care of course, but it's revealing.

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Laurent Malvert]

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:14 PM,  <mycroftiv@sphericalharmony.com> wrote:
> John Floren wrote:
>> [what everybody thought, in about 140 chars]
>
> [another > 2K chars rant]

(I'll give a shot to the > 2K chars approach thing)

mycroftiv, I don't think Floren was denying that you are trying
to make the world a better place, or being oblivious to your
honesty, or implying that your goals aren't noble in any way.

Also, I haven't read any answers that seemed to talk negatively
about ANTS either - though granted I skimmed through some of this
Homerian epic. In fact, I don't think that, apart from the
occasional expletive about how you're pressing for feedback and
invaded the mailing-list (some might say "polluted"
or "violated"), I didn't feel like anyone wasn't listening to
you (at first). If you look around, it's usually a rather quiet
group here, with some occasional heated debates. It looked like
folks were taking a reasonable amount of time to digest a large
dump of information, and without any immediate harsh reaction or
negative assumption about you and your objectives here or at
large.  Which is really what you'd want from people reviewing
your work.


So you can probably assume a combination of the following:

 - people have not tried ANTS thoroughly enough to give you
   quality feedback (yet);

 - people liked ANTS and didn't say anything (usually the
   likelihood is higher that the disgruntled users would be
   the more vocal ones, which is a *good* thing for you);

 - people got very, very confused about ANTS and figured
   they'd come back to it later;

 - people wanted to try ANTS but suddenly got a glimpse of what
   it might feel like to be an innocent passers-by being taken
   hostage with a gun to their head in a bank robbery, or meeting
   a cross of Pennywise, a doomsday prophet and conspiration
   theorist in closed room;

 - spam filters hesitated but finally had mercy on 9fans readers.


As others said, we may have lives, stuff to do, projects and
things that matter to us as well probably as dearly as they do to
you, and we can't jump on every bandwagon.  And I have to say
that coming back after only 6 days off-line, your emails, while
representing a significant chunk of my mailer's payload, are way
down in terms of priority.  There's the word "fans" in this
group's address after all, and while sometimes borderline
fanatics as well, it's still hobbyism for the large part. I don't
think many are paid to read and reply here, or that they have
huge amounts of time to do so.

Patience is a virtue, silence is golden, wait and see and all
good things come to those who wait would be good colloquialisms
to keep in mind while you give 9fans peace and quiet to take a
look - extended or not, but at least a look - at your effort and
get back to you if they *want*.
You can't force people into doing things, but you can surely put
them off of doing them. Folks here are rather curious by nature,
so don't scare them away.


I'm impressed though at how many of us you managed to awaken from
stasis, and at how it triggered rather insignificant discussions - in
the context of that list, that is. Whatever magic you used to do that,
please stop it, it's giving us the creeps.

And yes, patents suck, but the solution to fixing them isn't here.


PS: ANTS looks interesting. That's all I know and can say for now,
and I don't guarantee further feedback.

--
Laurent Malvert
(a usually very passive/read-only 9fan)

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> Whatever magic you used to do that,
> please stop it, it's giving us the creeps.

I think I figured that one out. It's a humane attitude, which is
lacking on this list. People are not computers, they need to put their
personal insight into discussion to keep them as a community. May be
that's the main problem for Plan 9.

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 08:19:20PM +0200, vvs009@gmail.com wrote:
> > Whatever magic you used to do that,
> > please stop it, it's giving us the creeps.
>
> I think I figured that one out. It's a humane attitude, which is
> lacking on this list. People are not computers, they need to put their
> personal insight into discussion to keep them as a community. May be
> that's the main problem for Plan 9.
>

Thank god, after all these years, someone finally figured out The Main
Problem For Plan 9.  Now, at last, we can begin the healing process.

khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> Thank god, after all these years, someone finally figured out The Main
> Problem For Plan 9.  Now, at last, we can begin the healing process.

You overacting and it's unconvincing. But keep trying, next time it
could be better :)

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 08:31:37PM +0200, vvs009@gmail.com wrote:
> > Thank god, after all these years, someone finally figured out The Main
> > Problem For Plan 9.  Now, at last, we can begin the healing process.
>
> You overacting and it's unconvincing. But keep trying, next time it
> could be better :)
>

I can't handle this criticism.  Are you attempting to commit negligent
homicide?

khm

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[vvs009]

> I can't handle this criticism.  Are you attempting to commit negligent
> homicide?

No, no. Suicide, I presume? Don't count on it. But I'm relieving you
from any responsibility, just in case.

Re: [9fans] John Floren, Im trying to make the world better

[Laurent Malvert]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 7:19 PM,  <vvs009@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Whatever magic you used to do that,
>> please stop it, it's giving us the creeps.
>
> I think I figured that one out. It's a humane attitude, which is
> lacking on this list. People are not computers, they need to put their
> personal insight into discussion to keep them as a community. May be
> that's the main problem for Plan 9.

I don't think that was a problem.
Depends on how you determine and quantify success.

--
Laurent Malvert