[9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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If I cannot find support and collaboration on 9fans, where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[ori]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> If I cannot find support and collaboration on 9fans, where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

In light of the low quality of posts on this list, the p9f set up
a new, moderated, 9users list, and sent initial invites to people
who attended iwp9.

Anyone currently on the list can propose new invites.

AI slop will not be tolerated there.


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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Bakul Shah via 9fans]

As we used to say in the Usenet era,

         \|||/
         (o o)
,----ooO--(_)-------.
| Please            |
|   don't feed the  |
|     TROLL's !     |
'--------------Ooo--'
        |__|__|
        ooO Ooo

Deny them attention and they will go away eventually.

On Aug 3, 2024, at 3:40 PM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> 
> In light of the low quality of posts on this list, the p9f set up
> a new, moderated, 9users list, and sent initial invites to people
> who attended iwp9.
> 
> Anyone currently on the list can propose new invites.
> 
> AI slop will not be tolerated there.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[ibrahim via 9fans]

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On Sunday, 4 August 2024, at 1:09 AM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> As we used to say in the Usenet era,

         \|||/
         (o o)
,----ooO--(_)-------.
| Please            |
|   don't feed the  |
|     TROLL's !     |
'--------------Ooo--'
        |___|___|
        ooO Ooo

Deny them attention and they will go away eventually.

On Sunday, 4 August 2024, at 12:42 AM, ori wrote:
> In light of the low quality of posts on this list, the p9f set up
a new, moderated, 9users list, and sent initial invites to people
who attended iwp9.

Anyone currently on the list can propose new invites.

AI slop will not be tolerated there.

Nice to know that there now exists a list for selected members.

What follows next ?

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never encountered an open-source community quite like this. Creating a separate mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say the least, unusual. I suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who prefer not to assist newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.

What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.

I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy helping newcomers. 

I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group. 

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Clout Tolstoy]

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You have to know your target audience a bit, most people here are old hats,
and not trying to step on any toes, but perhaps often on the "spectrum."
Plan 9 is often against the grain of modern trends but gets riffed from and
not a lot is returned to Plan 9.

But, no the real issue here is discourse with others, where the work you've
suggested and purposed reminds everyone here of an LLM facilitating half
the side of the conversation without actually bringing your own results
from those one sided LLM conversations.  Nobody really cares if you us an
LLM or not. (Maybe some do, but that's personal) it's about the results,
not about ideas of what the results could be.

On Sat, Aug 3, 2024, 6:19 PM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:

> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this
> culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an
> unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never
> encountered an open-source community quite like this. Creating a separate
> mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say the least, unusual. I
> suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who prefer not to assist
> newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.
>
> What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for
> newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.
>
> I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy
> helping newcomers.
>
> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If
> someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks
> a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is
> "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan
> 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group.
>
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
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> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9804faa2e50a80d8-M1f09bd45a9910dcde0016d81>
>

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Clout Tolstoy]

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And the cost, the payment people here often  seek are useful contributions
and well crafted and understandable questions.

On Sat, Aug 3, 2024, 6:33 PM Clout Tolstoy <tolstoyclout@gmail.com> wrote:

> You have to know your target audience a bit, most people here are old
> hats, and not trying to step on any toes, but perhaps often on the
> "spectrum."  Plan 9 is often against the grain of modern trends but gets
> riffed from and not a lot is returned to Plan 9.
>
> But, no the real issue here is discourse with others, where the work
> you've suggested and purposed reminds everyone here of an LLM facilitating
> half the side of the conversation without actually bringing your own
> results from those one sided LLM conversations.  Nobody really cares if you
> us an LLM or not. (Maybe some do, but that's personal) it's about the
> results, not about ideas of what the results could be.
>
> On Sat, Aug 3, 2024, 6:19 PM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:
>
>> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this
>> culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an
>> unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never
>> encountered an open-source community quite like this. Creating a separate
>> mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say the least, unusual. I
>> suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who prefer not to assist
>> newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.
>>
>> What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for
>> newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.
>>
>> I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy
>> helping newcomers.
>>
>> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If
>> someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks
>> a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is
>> "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan
>> 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group.
>>
>> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
>> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
>> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
>> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
>> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9804faa2e50a80d8-M1f09bd45a9910dcde0016d81>
>>

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Ori Bernstein]

When you posted questions to a mailing list, pasted them into ChatGPT, and sent the responses back to the list, you made several mistakes. Here are the key points:

1. **Respect for Time**: Sending AI-generated responses that contain inaccuracies or hallucinations wastes the time of those reading them.
2. **Accuracy**: AI responses may contain errors, leading to misinformation.
3. **Transparency**: Not informing others that the responses were AI-generated can lead to trust issues.
4. **Relevance**: Ensure responses are relevant and add value to the discussion.

Additionally, when engaging in any group discussion, whether online or in person, it is important to consider physical etiquette:

- **Personal Hygiene**: Maintain good hygiene to ensure a comfortable environment for everyone.
  - Brush your teeth and use mouthwash to avoid bad breath.
  - Shower regularly and use deodorant to avoid body odor.

**Checklist for Improvement**:
- Verify the accuracy of information before sharing.
- Clearly indicate when an AI is used to generate responses.
- Ensure your contributions are relevant and valuable.
- Maintain good personal hygiene:
  - Brush teeth and use mouthwash.
  - Shower regularly and use deodorant.
- Respect the time and attention of others in the discussion.

On August 4, 2024 10:18:17 AM GMT+09:00, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never encountered an open-source community quite like this. Creating a separate mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say the least, unusual. I suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who prefer not to assist newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.
> 
> What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.
> 
> I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy helping newcomers.
> 
> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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When knowledge is lacking, make assumptions and test them if possible. If you're struggling, show your work so others can see and comment on your mistakes. If I told you my math problem without showing my work, you couldn't accurately assess my errors. This approach is based on my formal training. If you dislike it, you likely have a different background. This method is what I was taught, and our differing experiences might explain our differences in opinion.

If there is a group that is open to helping newcomers with their problems, I'll move there. I'm still searching.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[sirjofri]

04.08.2024 03:18:37 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never encountered an open-source community quite like this. Creating a separate mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say the least, unusual. I suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who prefer not to assist newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.

LLMs: others already answered a lot, and I think I made my point clear enough already.

Payment: I think you got this wrong. It's not about the money, it's about effort. Expecting effort from others is something different than showing effort from yourself. People will likely help you if you show effort in your questions and your work (see many examples on this mailing list). Copy-pasting LLM content without any rework and validation is not showing effort, it's just expecting others to invest their time reading and answering.

You can expect effort from others by paying money, that's how companies work. There is a reasonable amount of bounties in the plan 9 community, from smaller lower-priced projects to larger projects.

Elitist new mailing list: I understand this feeling. I heard of this thing the first time and it gives another Super Secret Society of Selected Plan 9 People vibes we got from p9f in the beginning. This vibe got lost when p9f started doing their thing and we built some trust. I just hope that (1) they don't destroy this trust, (2) they actively search the community for selected mailing list members to invite so it can grow somewhat naturally without keeping that SSSoSP9P feel, (3) the group will open at some point or at least become publicly readable. Since the member board of p9f is quite good (people from basically all relevant communities) I have some hope.

> What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.

Yes, that could be true. Plan 9 is not a beginner friendly system and users are expected to learn a lot, by reading the papers, the manuals, sometimes reading the source. Ideally (and sometimes required) by using the software. Then you can ask real questions, discuss real problems, give real answers. I don't think this is an issue within the community, see many other threads.

It's also highly recommended that you follow along other threads and learn how people treat each other and how they talk to each other. It's very common in (online) communities to just lurk until you feel the moment.

I do think that we have some trolls, probably more than in other communities, at least based on their sizes. That's probably also because of how plan 9 works and what it reflects in this modern world (we don't follow modern trends).

> I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy helping newcomers.

The friendliest that I know is the 9fans discord. There's rarely heavy discussion going on, only people taking about general topics and people sharing their experiences and work and others encouraging each other. You might want to give this a try.

> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group. 

Hard questions require more work to ask. It's quite common to collect your thoughts, gather lots of information, build knowledge and test things out before asking the question. Depending on the topic that can take a day or a week, sometimes more. Oftentimes you have to ask some smaller simple questions on that way.

Simple questions sometimes tend to scream that the one who asked didn't read the manuals/docs. That's often a waste of time for the ones who would consider answering. In some cases I don't answer because I know there are people who know more than me about that topic.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

I for one have received quite a bit of help from this and the related 
9front mailing list when I was getting started with 9front, but then I 
had more targeted questions as I had been doing what I could with 
reading man pages and other available documentation and mostly needed to 
fill in a few gaps where I was struggling to find something specific; in 
some cases the documentation I was looking at was out of date.

I concur that there is not a problem with the lists in that regard; 
there are people here who are generally willing to help fill in gaps in 
understanding when they can see that you are putting in the effort 
yourself first.  They are not here to teach you from the ground up, 
however - this is not a high school course where you are starting from 
zero and being walked through the material step by step.  Start by 
studying the materials (yourself) which are available and try to 
understand as much as you can from what is already out there.  Come back 
here when you get stuck with something you can't figure out on your own.


On 8/4/24 02:59, sirjofri wrote:
> 04.08.2024 03:18:37 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
>> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never encountered an open-source community quite like this. Creating a separate mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say the least, unusual. I suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who prefer not to assist newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.
> LLMs: others already answered a lot, and I think I made my point clear enough already.
>
> Payment: I think you got this wrong. It's not about the money, it's about effort. Expecting effort from others is something different than showing effort from yourself. People will likely help you if you show effort in your questions and your work (see many examples on this mailing list). Copy-pasting LLM content without any rework and validation is not showing effort, it's just expecting others to invest their time reading and answering.
>
> You can expect effort from others by paying money, that's how companies work. There is a reasonable amount of bounties in the plan 9 community, from smaller lower-priced projects to larger projects.
>
> Elitist new mailing list: I understand this feeling. I heard of this thing the first time and it gives another Super Secret Society of Selected Plan 9 People vibes we got from p9f in the beginning. This vibe got lost when p9f started doing their thing and we built some trust. I just hope that (1) they don't destroy this trust, (2) they actively search the community for selected mailing list members to invite so it can grow somewhat naturally without keeping that SSSoSP9P feel, (3) the group will open at some point or at least become publicly readable. Since the member board of p9f is quite good (people from basically all relevant communities) I have some hope.
>
>> What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.
> Yes, that could be true. Plan 9 is not a beginner friendly system and users are expected to learn a lot, by reading the papers, the manuals, sometimes reading the source. Ideally (and sometimes required) by using the software. Then you can ask real questions, discuss real problems, give real answers. I don't think this is an issue within the community, see many other threads.
>
> It's also highly recommended that you follow along other threads and learn how people treat each other and how they talk to each other. It's very common in (online) communities to just lurk until you feel the moment.
>
> I do think that we have some trolls, probably more than in other communities, at least based on their sizes. That's probably also because of how plan 9 works and what it reflects in this modern world (we don't follow modern trends).
>
>> I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy helping newcomers.
> The friendliest that I know is the 9fans discord. There's rarely heavy discussion going on, only people taking about general topics and people sharing their experiences and work and others encouraging each other. You might want to give this a try.
>
>> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group.
> Hard questions require more work to ask. It's quite common to collect your thoughts, gather lots of information, build knowledge and test things out before asking the question. Depending on the topic that can take a day or a week, sometimes more. Oftentimes you have to ask some smaller simple questions on that way.
> 
> Simple questions sometimes tend to scream that the one who asked didn't read the manuals/docs. That's often a waste of time for the ones who would consider answering. In some cases I don't answer because I know there are people who know more than me about that topic.
> 
> sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I didn't get it wrong, I was asked to send money if I wanted help, which I found unusual.

I am using the Plan 9 wiki (https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/) for information. I've read the manual and docs there, but the documentation is lacking. I'm not sure how often the docs, manuals, and ISO file are updated. 

I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html. 

There just isn't a consistent community experience here. Why can't newcomers just go to the Plan 9 website, https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/, and get everything they need? What is up with the community site and 9fans?


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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I feel like 9fans engages in a bait and switch. I come for Plan 9 but end up with something else I didn't ask for. I have even been solicited to work on documentation of an non-Plan 9 project. This community is just plain odd.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Dave MacFarlane via 9fans]

On August 4, 2024 7:01:11 p.m. GMT+09:00, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
>I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html. 

Wow. I don't know how you found that. Please leave the me of 10 years ago out of this thread while I decide if I should delete that site or leave it as a historical artifact.

- Dave

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[sirjofri]

04.08.2024 12:01:20 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> I didn't get it wrong, I was asked to send money if I wanted help, which I found unusual.

I must have missed that then, even though I carefully read all the threads. It would also surprise me a lot if it was about real actually helpful help!

> I am using the Plan 9 wiki (https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/) for information. I've read the manual and docs there, but the documentation is lacking. I'm not sure how often the docs, manuals, and ISO file are updated.

That's the plan 9 wiki as shipped with the system with many more pages.

I remember that I invested a full year reading documentation etc (everything I could find), without really touching the system. It can take a long time to understand enough to install and maintain a full plan 9 system. Unlike linux, you probably need more than one attempt to get a "successful" installation (one that just works stable enough to actually work with it). Just take your time and learn from as many resources as possible.

Also, classical tutorials don't work for plan 9. They barely work for linux (everyone has a different HDD, for example) and Plan 9 as a network system is more complex, usually (do you have two cpus, one, or fifty? How many terminals, how many networks, ...).

With some guided help you can get a basic system installed on a single node, we have guides for that. Adventuresin9 did some installation videos, I think henesy, too. Fqa leads you through the installation process of a 9front system, and it honestly isn't too hard if you have supported hardware and don't need extra cases (and yes, a proper venti installation with mirroring is a special case).

Then, installation is only one step. You have to familiarize yourself with how plan 9 works and what plan 9 is. Everyday use is completely different than unix systems. Many things have a plan 9-ey solution that you might not think of, often using some filesystem.

> I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html.

Plan 9 requires more setup than a linux, because Plan 9 is a network system. You don't just create a new user on your laptop, you have to create it on the fileserver (and the auth server if you want a full plan 9 installation). The fqa of 9front explains this (and how to do it) very well, newcomers should probably include that in the reading.

Note that the fqa is also a humorous piece of documentation. This is a warning.

> There just isn't a consistent community experience here. Why can't newcomers just go to the Plan 9 website, https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/, and get everything they need? What is up with the community site and 9fans?

The original plan 9 website is down for ages. It is superseded by the website of p9f. The original Plan 9 (1-4th edition) is more or less an archived version without any active development happening. Good luck there.

The other flavors of plan 9 have their official websites, for example 9front has 9front.org. 9legacy also has its own page. It seems that 9front is still not considered a Plan 9 system in 2024, judging from the p9f website mentioning 9legacy and nothing else (also 9atom is missing, but that's quite dead as far as I know).

With that in mind, you can choose between the original plan 9 editions that are only historically relevant, 9legacy, which extends the 4th edition with patches, fixes, more hardware support, and 9front, which is a modern version of plan 9, developed independently, and some things are very different. There are a few other versions developed for more special purposes.

Again, another long mail. I probably have too much time right now...

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[hiro]

> I didn't get it wrong, I was asked to send money if I wanted help, which I found unusual.

yeah, nobody owes you anything. capitalist joke. don't get hung up on it.

> I am using the Plan 9 wiki (https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/) for information. I've read the manual and docs there, but the documentation is lacking. I'm not sure how often the docs, manuals, and ISO file are updated.

9p.io is unfortunately mostly just a backup of the defunct bell-labs
plan9 presence.

> I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html.

nobody denies that plan 9 has issues. it is true that many are unhappy.

> There just isn't a consistent community experience here. Why can't newcomers just go to the Plan 9 website, https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/, and get everything they need? What is up with the community site and 9fans?

It's unfortunate, yes. I agree with your criticism.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[hiro]

> Also, classical tutorials don't work for plan 9. They barely work for linux (everyone has a different HDD, for example) and Plan 9 as a network system is more complex, usually (do you have two cpus, one, or fifty? How many terminals, how many networks, ...).

I was never convinced whether it's true or not, but I'm happy you
brought it up once again, I missed this being stated out loud for a
while.

> Plan 9 requires more setup than a linux, because Plan 9 is a network system. You don't just create a new user on your laptop, you have to create it on the fileserver (and the auth server if >you want a full plan 9 installation). The fqa of 9front explains this (and how to do it) very well, newcomers should probably include that in the reading.

It depends what you're gonna do with the system.You can spend a whole
life setting up linux software, whereas the total quantity of Plan9
software is extremely limited, saving you this time.
> Plan 9 requires more setup than a linux, because Plan 9 is a network system. You don't just create a new user on your laptop, you have to create it on the fileserver (and the auth server if you want a full plan 9 installation). The fqa of 9front explains this (and how to do it) very well, newcomers should probably include that in the reading.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Viktor Pocedulić]

If you could stop engaging with this loser, that'd be great.

Thanks.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[David L. Craig]

On 24Aug04:1319+0200, sirjofri wrote:
>
> I remember that I invested a full year reading documentation etc (everything I could find), without really touching the system. It can take a long time to understand enough to
+install and maintain a full plan 9 system. Unlike linux, you probably
need more than one attempt to get a "successful" installation (one
that just works stable enough to actually
+work with it). Just take your time and learn from as many resources
as possible.
>
> Also, classical tutorials don't work for plan 9. They barely work for linux (everyone has a different HDD, for example) and Plan 9 as a network system is more complex, usually (do
+you have two cpus, one, or fifty? How many terminals, how many networks, ...).
>
> With some guided help you can get a basic system installed on a single node, we have guides for that. Adventuresin9 did some installation videos, I think henesy, too. Fqa leads you
+through the installation process of a 9front system, and it honestly
isn't too hard if you have supported hardware and don't need extra
cases (and yes, a proper venti installation
+with mirroring is a special case).
>
> Then, installation is only one step. You have to familiarize yourself with how plan 9 works and what plan 9 is. Everyday use is completely different than unix systems. Many things
+have a plan 9-ey solution that you might not think of, often using
some filesystem.
> > I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html.
>
> Plan 9 requires more setup than a linux, because Plan 9 is a network system. You don't just create a new user on your laptop, you have to create it on the fileserver (and the auth
+server if you want a full plan 9 installation). The fqa of 9front
explains this (and how to do it) very well, newcomers should probably
include that in the reading.
>
> Note that the fqa is also a humorous piece of documentation. This is a warning.
>
> > There just isn't a consistent community experience here. Why can't newcomers just go to the Plan 9 website, https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/, and get everything they need?
+What is up with the community site and 9fans?
>
> The original plan 9 website is down for ages. It is superseded by the website of p9f. The original Plan 9 (1-4th edition) is more or less an archived version without any active
+development happening. Good luck there.
>
> The other flavors of plan 9 have their official websites, for example 9front has 9front.org. 9legacy also has its own page. It seems that 9front is still not considered a Plan 9
+system in 2024, judging from the p9f website mentioning 9legacy and
nothing else (also 9atom is missing, but that's quite dead as far as I
know).
>
> With that in mind, you can choose between the original plan 9 editions that are only historically relevant, 9legacy, which extends the 4th edition with patches, fixes, more hardware
+support, and 9front, which is a modern version of plan 9, developed
independently, and some things are very different. There are a few
other versions developed for more special
+purposes.

FWIW, I put together "The Virtual Plan 9 Cookbook"
(http://dlcusa.net/vp9cb-9pio)
years ago to address this newbie need.  But there was no way to point it out at
the "official" website.  You've probably never heard of it.  It might
have helped.


On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 11:20 AM sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:
>
> 04.08.2024 12:01:20 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> > I didn't get it wrong, I was asked to send money if I wanted help, which I found unusual.
>
> I must have missed that then, even though I carefully read all the threads. It would also surprise me a lot if it was about real actually helpful help!
>
> > I am using the Plan 9 wiki (https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/) for information. I've read the manual and docs there, but the documentation is lacking. I'm not sure how often the docs, manuals, and ISO file are updated.
>
> That's the plan 9 wiki as shipped with the system with many more pages.
>
> I remember that I invested a full year reading documentation etc (everything I could find), without really touching the system. It can take a long time to understand enough to install and maintain a full plan 9 system. Unlike linux, you probably need more than one attempt to get a "successful" installation (one that just works stable enough to actually work with it). Just take your time and learn from as many resources as possible.
>
> Also, classical tutorials don't work for plan 9. They barely work for linux (everyone has a different HDD, for example) and Plan 9 as a network system is more complex, usually (do you have two cpus, one, or fifty? How many terminals, how many networks, ...).
>
> With some guided help you can get a basic system installed on a single node, we have guides for that. Adventuresin9 did some installation videos, I think henesy, too. Fqa leads you through the installation process of a 9front system, and it honestly isn't too hard if you have supported hardware and don't need extra cases (and yes, a proper venti installation with mirroring is a special case).
>
> Then, installation is only one step. You have to familiarize yourself with how plan 9 works and what plan 9 is. Everyday use is completely different than unix systems. Many things have a plan 9-ey solution that you might not think of, often using some filesystem.
>
> > I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html.
>
> Plan 9 requires more setup than a linux, because Plan 9 is a network system. You don't just create a new user on your laptop, you have to create it on the fileserver (and the auth server if you want a full plan 9 installation). The fqa of 9front explains this (and how to do it) very well, newcomers should probably include that in the reading.
>
> Note that the fqa is also a humorous piece of documentation. This is a warning.
>
> > There just isn't a consistent community experience here. Why can't newcomers just go to the Plan 9 website, https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/, and get everything they need? What is up with the community site and 9fans?
> 
> The original plan 9 website is down for ages. It is superseded by the website of p9f. The original Plan 9 (1-4th edition) is more or less an archived version without any active development happening. Good luck there.
> 
> The other flavors of plan 9 have their official websites, for example 9front has 9front.org. 9legacy also has its own page. It seems that 9front is still not considered a Plan 9 system in 2024, judging from the p9f website mentioning 9legacy and nothing else (also 9atom is missing, but that's quite dead as far as I know).
> 
> With that in mind, you can choose between the original plan 9 editions that are only historically relevant, 9legacy, which extends the 4th edition with patches, fixes, more hardware support, and 9front, which is a modern version of plan 9, developed independently, and some things are very different. There are a few other versions developed for more special purposes.
> 
> Again, another long mail. I probably have too much time right now...
> 
> sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Thaddeus Woskowiak]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4591 bytes --]

> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this culture.
>

You don't understand the culture because you did not bother to learn it. So
if course you're frustrated and so are we.

I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an unwillingness to
> cooperate unless there's payment involved. I've never encountered an
> open-source community quite like this.
>

The comment about payment was explicitly aimed at you after you repeatedly
posted incorrect information that you demanded others to fix under the
guise of peer review. People's time is valuable and many here are busy with
work, life, and hobbies. They don't have the time to correct unhelpful LLM
rubbish because they're too busy writing actual code.

The lack of free time is why this culture exists - you are expected to do
the initial footwork starting with reading through /sys/docs (papers), man
pages, and the source code. If you get stuck then you put together a
detailed description of what you are trying to achieve, the steps you took,
and the results you got and post it. That's how you get answers. The OP did
that and you responded with useless auto generated garbage - that's the
opposite of helpful.

Creating a separate mailing list to avoid answering questions is, to say
> the least, unusual. I suppose it can be seen as a safe zone for those who
> prefer not to assist newcomers. To me, it feels elitist.
>

This list is obviously not moderated, which I'm fine with, but it leads to
low quality answers such as yours. Perhaps a better label for your "help"
is sabotage.

It's not elitist, It's necessary if we want to stay focused on providing
quality answers that ACTUALLY help people. You doubling down by lying
continually while posting unworkable nonsense should be grounds for removal
from participating in the list and I'm obviously not alone in this opinion.


> What I've learned is that there's a significant cultural gap for
> newcomers, with an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.
>

Again, you didn't bother studying the culture. Again, on you.


> I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy
> helping newcomers.
>

If you were actually paying attention you'd realize there were in fact
numerous friendly and helpful posts. Unfortunately you were too busy
defending your antics which is disruptive. You are the one making this
forum unfriendly. The fact that you refuse to understand that is again, on
you.


> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If
> someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks
> a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is
> "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan
> 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group.
>

This is all about you isn't it? You wanted to be the hero and save the day
by using someone else's computer to run a fancy markov chain to generate an
answer so you could be first past the post.

Congrats. You won. But the prize is a dunce hat. This isn't github, you
don't get stars for helping people. There's no prize for you.

Now it's my turn to also ask: please stop polluting the list with unhelpful
answers and discord. We see right through your bullshit and there's nothing
you can do at this point to save face as it's already been completely
obliterated.

Either learn from this experience or go away. I'd forgive you if you owned
up, admitted your faults, and made an actual effort to learn how to
interact with this community. That is what a mature, socially adapted human
being would do. But I doubt that will happen as you're only concerned about
yourself. That's the opposite of community.

I'm also going to say that this kind of discord is stressful and negatively
effects people emotionally. I have personally listened to devs who are
tired of the attacks and get depressed which discourages them from
participating. It effects them on a personal level and it's not cool to
witness in person. Because of this, some have abandoned this community
which is a tragedy. You and others like you are responsible for this.

>
>
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9804faa2e50a80d8-M1f09bd45a9910dcde0016d81>
>

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> I'm not a troll; frustrated, perhaps. I just don't understand this culture. I don't think the issue lies with LLMs, but rather with an unwillingness to cooperate unless there's payment involved.

To be totally clear, I was being sarcastic. I thought that was obvious.

> an unspoken social contract and various hidden challenges.

You were told _explicitly_ at least five separate times that the way
you were treating other people was disrespectful, and that the usage
of LLMs was considered as spam by the community.

It's genuinely hard to believe that you aren't a troll at this point.

> I just don't understand this culture. I'm simply seeking a friendly Plan 9 group where people genuinely enjoy helping newcomers.  
> I see some people get treated well and others are treated poorly.  If someone asks a simple question, you give the person a pass. If someone asks a hard question, then you treat the person badly. The lesson there is "Don't ask hard questions." That is how I view it. If there are better Plan 9 groups out there, then I'd like to join that group. 

I'm personally happy to answer any questions you want to ask,
simple or hard. The only requirement is that you not use an LLM
to generate them, and that you not deliberately give bad answers
to other people's questions.

It's really not a high bar to clear.


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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> If you're struggling, show your work so others can see and comment on your mistakes

Ironic to hear that from someone who is clearly using LLMs and avoiding
putting in any effort, and simultaneously refusing to show the minimal
work involved (the prompt) while also attempting to illegally claim copyright
on the output :P



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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> I didn't get it wrong, I was asked to send money if I wanted help, which I found unusual.

No, I sarcastically said that if I were to continue reviewing your
LLM-generated spam, I'd start charging for it. At no point did you
give any signs of wanting actual help, which I and many others would
gladly provide free of charge.

> I am using the Plan 9 wiki (https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/) for information. I've read the manual and docs there, but the documentation is lacking. I'm not sure how often the docs, manuals, and ISO file are updated. 
> 
> I am not the only one with Plan 9 issues. Here is another person with similar problems: https://driusan.github.io/plan9.html. 
> 
> There just isn't a consistent community experience here. Why can't newcomers just go to the Plan 9 website, https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/, and get everything they need? What is up with the community site and 9fans?

These are valid points.

Lack of good documentation, especially for a total newcomer or
someone who isn't already technically inclined, is a serious issue.

- Noam Preil



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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> I didn't get it wrong, I was asked to send money if I wanted help, which I found unusual.

If you're sincerely trying to be helpful, then I apologize for
the excessive snark, but frankly I assumed that you were being
obtuse intentionally, since you have repeatedly ignored people
explaining why your posts were not being received well at all.


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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[arnold]

"David L. Craig" <dlc.usa@gmail.com> wrote:

> FWIW, I put together "The Virtual Plan 9 Cookbook"
> (http://dlcusa.net/vp9cb-9pio)
> years ago to address this newbie need.  But there was no way to point it out at
> the "official" website.  You've probably never heard of it.  It might
> have helped.

It's ~ 10 years old. Is it still relevant? Or do you plan to
update it?

Thanks,

Arnold

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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From a newcomer's perspective, it feels like dealing with a cult run by scam artists. It seems someone wants to profit from me by selling books on Amazon, like a multi-level marketing group. People say others here are on a spectrum, but it feels more like psychosis, with a loss of contact with reality. I really feel like I'm being gaslighted. I might seem like a troll, but you don't understand how you appear to others.

I am looking for a Plan 9 group that doesn't behave this way. If anyone is interested, let's form a group that isn't cult-like, that just wants to help newcomers and not prey on them.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 02:27:58PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> From a newcomer's perspective, it feels like dealing with a cult run by scam artists. It seems someone wants to profit from me by selling books on Amazon, like a multi-level marketing group. People say others here are on a spectrum, but it feels more like psychosis, with a loss of contact with reality. I really feel like I'm being gaslighted. I might seem like a troll, but you don't understand how you appear to others.
> 
> I am looking for a Plan 9 group that doesn't behave this way. If anyone is interested, let's form a group that isn't cult-like, that just wants to help newcomers and not prey on them.

Why are you now pretending to be a newcomer?  Assuming a false identity
is against the Topicbox terms of service.  I recommend you knock it off.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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No. This is how you treat newcomers. Get a grip on reality.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Wes Kussmaul]

On 8/4/24 14:32, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 02:27:58PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
>>  From a newcomer's perspective, it feels like dealing with a cult run by scam artists. It seems someone wants to profit from me by selling books on Amazon, like a multi-level marketing group. People say others here are on a spectrum, but it feels more like psychosis, with a loss of contact with reality. I really feel like I'm being gaslighted. I might seem like a troll, but you don't understand how you appear to others.
>>
>> I am looking for a Plan 9 group that doesn't behave this way. If anyone is interested, let's form a group that isn't cult-like, that just wants to help newcomers and not prey on them.
> 
> Why are you now pretending to be a newcomer?  Assuming a false identity
> is against the Topicbox terms of service.  I recommend you knock it off.
> 
> khm

This is exactly why forums, social media, etc. need accountable 
anonymity (works like your car's license plate, which makes you 
accountable for what happens on public roadways, but no one gets to know 
the identity of the driver or owner unless there's been an incident.)

Plus measurable reliability of identity claims, as with NIST 800-63 or 
Osmio IDQA,

WK

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I am sharing my perspective, but it seems you disagree with my viewpoint and want to label me negatively. Is this how your group handles differing opinions?
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 02:50:55PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> I am sharing my perspective, but it seems you disagree with my viewpoint and want to label me negatively. Is this how your group handles differing opinions?

This approach to community engagement is called "DARVO."  After you
attacked the list with spambot, you:

D - Denied any harm ("I'm just trying to help!")
A - Attacked the people asking for you to stop ("You're so mean!")
RVO - Reversed Victim and Offender roles ("Is this how you treat new
      people?")

It's a common pattern in abusive people, probably because it's so
effective.  But it doesn't work as well when it's executed so poorly,
like most of your messages.

Better luck next time,
khm

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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No, you don't want to face reality. Look at the situation. Newcomers struggle to engage with Plan 9 and this community. I showed you evidence from 10 years ago, and you still discount it. You can live in a delusion if you want. I won't.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Eli Cohen]

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sir, people don't understand the use of the Internet for something other
than crime. it's an honest mistake that everyone makes when the first log
in but have not read the papers yet

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:01 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 04, 2024 at 02:50:55PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us
> wrote:
> > I am sharing my perspective, but it seems you disagree with my viewpoint
> and want to label me negatively. Is this how your group handles differing
> opinions?
> 
> This approach to community engagement is called "DARVO."  After you
> attacked the list with spambot, you:
> 
> D - Denied any harm ("I'm just trying to help!")
> A - Attacked the people asking for you to stop ("You're so mean!")
> RVO - Reversed Victim and Offender roles ("Is this how you treat new
>       people?")
> 
> It's a common pattern in abusive people, probably because it's so
> effective.  But it doesn't work as well when it's executed so poorly,
> like most of your messages.
> 
> Better luck next time,
> khm

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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People who don't face reality are often called delusional, in denial, or out of touch with reality. If you a perpetuating a delusion for gain, what should I consider that to be...I'm thinking a scam artist. My point of view is just that simple.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Clout Tolstoy]

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Zero posts about plan 9 and just complaining about a personal view point is
a great way to kill a thread here.   Go form your dream team, nobody needs
constant updates on thoughts and feelings.

People here have been actually trying to help, just because that helps
isn't what you think you need, doesn't mean they still weren't trying to
help the best they can with what limited and false information has been
provided.

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:13 PM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:

> People who don't face reality are often called delusional, in denial, or
> out of touch with reality. If you a perpetuating a delusion for gain, what
> should I consider that to be...I'm thinking a scam artist. My point of view
> is just that simple.
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9804faa2e50a80d8-M5ce97418fabc954946f226ec>
>

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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What do you expect when you're attacked in this manner? You can attack back or run away or just take it. You have my response. 
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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If something good comes from this thread, it was worth it. If nothing changes, the delusions persist, and someone else will have a similar experience. 
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Thank you, Clout Tolstoy, for your comment. The goal isn't to kill the thread but to help others. It's easy to get sidetracked when attacked. I wanted to highlight issues that, as a newcomer, are unpleasant but noticeable.

Starting a Plan 9 newcomers' group seems like a good idea. Newcomers can get helpful guidance and provide useful feedback. They can easily see what's lacking in the Plan 9 wiki. Who can we engage to update the wiki and improve the newcomer experience? The challenge is whether any experts will be willing to join.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Eli Cohen]

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you're in the right place. I'm the only one out of the three of us though.
welcome to the community!!! we really appreciate your participation

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 1:15 PM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:

> Thank you, Clout Tolstoy, for your comment. The goal isn't to kill the
> thread but to help others. It's easy to get sidetracked when attacked. I
> wanted to highlight issues that, as a newcomer, are unpleasant but
> noticeable.
>
> Starting a Plan 9 newcomers' group seems like a good idea. Newcomers can
> get helpful guidance and provide useful feedback. They can easily see
> what's lacking in the Plan 9 wiki. Who can we engage to update the wiki and
> improve the newcomer experience? The challenge is whether any experts will
> be willing to join.
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9804faa2e50a80d8-M5dfc36ed140808fc13cc53f9>
>

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[sirjofri]

04.08.2024 22:14:26 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> Thank you, Clout Tolstoy, for your comment. The goal isn't to kill the thread but to help others. It's easy to get sidetracked when attacked. I wanted to highlight issues that, as a newcomer, are unpleasant but noticeable.

If newcomers want help, but don't want to listen, nobody can help them. That's just how it is.

Also the other way around: if you say you want to help but everything you do is hindering people who are trying to help, you're just not helping.

> Starting a Plan 9 newcomers' group seems like a good idea. Newcomers can get helpful guidance and provide useful feedback. They can easily see what's lacking in the Plan 9 wiki. Who can we engage to update the wiki and improve the newcomer experience? The challenge is whether any experts will be willing to join.

Newcomers can already read helpful guidance by asking properly and studying everything that's out there. It seems like you never even read a paper, but expect that things "just work" some way or the other, and that "the community" should just help in a way that you expect. But that's not how it works.

Sure, the documentation can be improved, and people are trying, but the community is small (I'd guess less than 50-70 active people - compare that to any linux user group!). If you start a new group, with that attitude of yours, I doubt that anyone would want to join. We have lots of experts here, but you refuse to listen to them. Some experts even stopped responding, I assume they're just tired and see that it isn't worth it.

If you want, it's probably best that you read other threads (it's all available on topicbox) and lurk around to learn about how the community works and what people expect. Only by becoming part of the community, you can change and improve it!

If you can't do that bit it's maybe best to leave. We mentioned a few other parts of the community, like discord, you could try your luck there. The discord branch is friendlier and more welcoming, but most expectations are just the same (but there's also lots of offtopic there, which can help a lot).

Other than that, I can only see that we all (with only a few exceptions) tried our best to help you join the community. If you don't want to learn, then don't learn and go back to linux, windows, or even better, mac. Furthermore, gardening is also a nice hobby.

sirjofri

P.S.: Just in case, I don't really see distinct Plan 9 "communities", only one. There are different "branches" that I would separate, but you'll always find a few of the same people everywhere. Roughly mentioning, there's this 9fans mailing list, the 9front mailing list, the 9fans discord (which has a totally different purpose and feel than the mailing list), then there's gridchat. I know people that are present in all of the mentioned "branches", to varying degrees, and each branch has its own "channels" for communication. This however is just my perspective and other people will probably see it differently.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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No, I have listened. You did not expect a newcomer to be so vocal. If the community is as small as you say, improving the community pages should be quick and easy. Or, if needed, placing a disclaimer on the Plan 9 website stating the ISO is deprecated and should not be used wouldn't be difficult either, if this is the case.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[sirjofri]

05.08.2024 00:29:11 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:

> No, I have listened. You did not expect a newcomer to be so vocal. If the community is as small as you say, improving the community pages should be quick and easy. Or, if needed, placing a disclaimer on the Plan 9 website stating the ISO is deprecated and should not be used wouldn't be difficult either, if this is the case.

Good.

You may have noticed that I asked about the wikis. I'd really like to add some missing information, if that's fine with p9f.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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This situation is becoming more intriguing. I am guessing that P9F hosts 9fans. If P9F provides the official Plan 9 ISO but 9fans doesn't support it, I don't understand why. I thought 9fans supported the Plan 9 ISO. I would like discussions on how to use and improve documentation. It seems no one is supporting the Plan 9 ISO. If that's the case, please inform newcomers. This would prevent others like me from having the wrong impression about this community. If we need to call out the responsible people by name, let's do that. This situation is over the top and has apparently been the case for at least 10 years, from what I read.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Clout Tolstoy]

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Most modern iso for plan 9 comes from plan 9front, if you read their FAQ it
probably isn't for just anyone to use. But it's also the distro that gets
the most contributions.

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 4:08 PM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:

> This situation is becoming more intriguing. I am guessing that P9F hosts
> 9fans. If P9F provides the official Plan 9 ISO but 9fans doesn't support
> it, I don't understand why. I thought 9fans supported the Plan 9 ISO. I
> would like discussions on how to use and improve documentation. It seems no
> one is supporting the Plan 9 ISO. If that's the case, please inform
> newcomers. This would prevent others like me from having the wrong
> impression about this community. If we need to call out the responsible
> people by name, let's do that. This situation is over the top and has
> apparently been the case for at least 10 years, from what I read.
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9804faa2e50a80d8-M1c0ae464b10f6db8c57a21ed>
>

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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If people are going to be continually deceived, it seems right to report fraud, including scams and bad business practices, to the Federal Trade Commission. Let them sort this out.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[sirjofri]

05.08.2024 01:07:28 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> This situation is becoming more intriguing. I am guessing that P9F hosts 9fans. If P9F provides the official Plan 9 ISO but 9fans doesn't support it, I don't understand why. I thought 9fans supported the Plan 9 ISO. I would like discussions on how to use and improve documentation. It seems no one is supporting the Plan 9 ISO. If that's the case, please inform newcomers. This would prevent others like me from having the wrong impression about this community. If we need to call out the responsible people by name, let's do that. This situation is over the top and has apparently been the case for at least 10 years, from what I read.

That seems to be a misunderstanding or something like that. As far as I know the p9f is only distributing the original plan 9 software (ISO and source), which means 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition, all of which are outdated and receive no development at all.

"Forks" like 9front and 9legacy have the same code base, but receive active development. Those are however not p9f products. The fork that's closest to the last official release (4th) is 9legacy.

They could state that more clearly on their website, for newcomers. We also had a very long thread like three years ago about what p9f actually wants.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Michael Grunditz]

> 5 aug. 2024 kl. 01:28 skrev kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> 
> 
> If people are going to be continually deceived, it seems right to report fraud, including scams and bad business practices, to the Federal Trade Commission. Let them sort this out.



Ok this is just too much. I wonder if there is a email client  with some kind of killfile like many old usenet clients have.

Michael

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Michael. I'm done with these fraudsters. Good bye.
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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Ori Bernstein]

It's a wiki for a reason.

On August 5, 2024 7:51:42 AM GMT+09:00, sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:
>05.08.2024 00:29:11 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
>
>> No, I have listened. You did not expect a newcomer to be so vocal. If the community is as small as you say, improving the community pages should be quick and easy. Or, if needed, placing a disclaimer on the Plan 9 website stating the ISO is deprecated and should not be used wouldn't be difficult either, if this is the case.
> 
> Good.
> 
> You may have noticed that I asked about the wikis. I'd really like to add some missing information, if that's fine with p9f.
> 
> sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[David L. Craig]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 4:49 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> "David L. Craig" <dlc.usa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > FWIW, I put together "The Virtual Plan 9 Cookbook"
> > (http://dlcusa.net/vp9cb-9pio)
> > years ago to address this newbie need.  But there was no way to point it out at
> > the "official" website.  You've probably never heard of it.  It might
> > have helped.
>
> It's ~ 10 years old. Is it still relevant? Or do you plan to
> update it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold

I do not think there have been any Plan 9 changes.  Even with systemd,
Debian is still a functional virtualization platform for the exercise.

I received one email from I believe India reporting success following
the recipe and expressing gratitude for the document.

I currently have no plans to update it, and such would require a
non-trivial time investment.  It is unlikely I would update it without
a belief that such effort would be justified.

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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Bakul Shah via 9fans]

On Aug 4, 2024, at 4:40 PM, Michael Grunditz <michael.grunditz@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I wonder if there is a email client  with some kind of killfile like many old usenet clients have.

Looks like an opportunity to update upas (or Erik Quanstrom's nupas) :-)
AFAIK neither has support for filtering on the "From" line.

But since you use gmail, you can set up a filter for this on the
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#settings/filters
page. Not as easy as a killfile though!

Or you can just ride out this storm in a teacup.


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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[ori]

Quoth Bakul Shah via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> 
> Looks like an opportunity to update upas (or Erik Quanstrom's nupas) :-)
> AFAIK neither has support for filtering on the "From" line.

take a look at upas/filter -- you could do something like:

        /bin/upas/filter -h $1 $2 'From: kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us' /dev/null

in your pipeto file


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Re: [9fans] Where can I find active Plan 9 communities for support and collaboration?

[Bakul Shah via 9fans]

On Aug 4, 2024, at 10:33 PM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> 
> Quoth Bakul Shah via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
>> 
>> Looks like an opportunity to update upas (or Erik Quanstrom's nupas) :-)
>> AFAIK neither has support for filtering on the "From" line.
> 
> take a look at upas/filter -- you could do something like:
> 
>        /bin/upas/filter -h $1 $2 'From: kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us' /dev/null
> 
> in your pipeto file

I stand corrected. Thanks! [I never got around to using upas seriously].


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