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Mon, 20 Sep 2021 01:37:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15937.1632116621@lunacy.ugrad.cs.cmu.edu> <565ccec9-0efb-45ad-9d08-dbfe6ed35bd5@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Conor Williams Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:37:42 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] GSoC 2021 project ideas To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000098a78905cc69327f" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 11a043ec-19ee-11ec-89d5-9ac7b4c1e13f Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UMzlhZWM4ZjNmOWQ4NTAzZC1NZDNjOWRkYzk3YzhhY2MxOTZmM2Ix?= =?UTF-8?B?ODk2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md3c9ddc97c8acc196f3b1896:1:jzBpd7MGqipM4ufc4ZBEmtNn-ZI_4l_UAjVkeI90b7I --00000000000098a78905cc69327f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable some of the fuseblk disc/k drivers/modules on peppermint which is a flavour of ubuntu are not even in the kernel space and there are mount.XYZ processes left open which are wide open to attack (with # fuser -p ) /c09 for those chips tings On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 8:24 AM hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: > i think the main reason people are willing to fall for the android > platform is bec. there is no good long-term supply of updated phone > hardware with backwards-compatible interfaces. > > a lot of qualcomm and mediatek chipsets are being built, but instead > of documentation they only ship half-baked linux drivers, which are > often not even mainlined. > > those linux drivers are already hard to make work on actual linux > distributions, or even on android distributions. > > who wants to reverse-engineer the hardware over and over again based > on such linux drivers... > > On 9/20/21, Ethan Gardener wrote: > > tl;dr: forget inferno, port plan 9 to the pine phone. > > > > On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, at 6:43 AM, Dave Eckhardt wrote: > >> > Anyone know if this project went anywhere? > >> > > >> > https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~412/lectures/L05_Purge_Proposal.pdf > > > > I had to laugh at one of the slides. Inferno running natively on "x86 > > supercomputer"? I think implementing multicore support would be a first > > step, not to mention 64-bit! While it would be nice if those jobs were > done, > > they will take time and effort. Overall, if porting natively, I see > little > > sense in preferring Inferno to Plan 9, especially as Plan 9 already > supports > > 64-bit multicore. > > > >> Sadly, not. One issue is that modern Android releases don't > >> support 32-bit executables, and at the time that project was > >> attempted Inferno was somewhat 32-bit (I haven't looked since). > > > > Recalling the issues Hellaphone had and the time it took, I'm of the > opinion > > that getting Inferno to work on any given phone's Linux kernel is hardly > > more worthwhile than porting it directly to the hardware. The kernels > have > > undocumented interfaces. > > > > A current thread on OSdev (operating system development) forums is > looking > > at phones. It's a little rambly, but it reports on some encouraging > things. > > Lots of "baseband processors" (the phone-network communication > subsystems) > > have documented interfaces. There are at least 2 phones available now > which > > are fully open for operating system development: the PinePhone and the > > Librem 5. (5 is the screen size.) Of the 2, the Pine Phone seems better, > not > > least because it can boot from the SD card; useful for testing. > > https://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=3D1&t=3D53251 > > > > There's also the option of building your own phone out of components. T= he > > thread has some info. I'm guessing most here would prefer a PinePhone. > > > >> But I think I saw some recent-ish Inferno-on-Android activity here: > >> > >> https://github.com/bhgv/Inferno-OS-bhgv > > > > That's probably a good source of code. bhgv is a freelance programmer w= ho > > was very interested in Inferno and made several improvements including > > Truetype fonts. The last I heard was he tried to find paid work involvi= ng > > Inferno but couldn't, so he didn't have time to work on it. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T39aec8f3f9d8503d-Md3c9d= dc97c8acc196f3b1896 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000098a78905cc69327f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
some of the fuseblk disc/k drivers/module= s on peppermint which is a flavour of ubuntu
are not even in the = kernel space and there are mount.XYZ processes left open which are
wide open to attack (with # fuser -p <PID>) /c09
for thos= e chips tings

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 8:24 AM hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
i think the main reason peo= ple are willing to fall for the android
platform is bec. there is no good long-term supply of updated phone
hardware with backwards-compatible interfaces.

a lot of qualcomm and mediatek chipsets are being built, but instead
of documentation they only ship half-baked linux drivers, which are
often not even mainlined.

those linux drivers are already hard to make work on actual linux
distributions, or even on android distributions.

who wants to reverse-engineer the hardware over and over again based
on such linux drivers...

On 9/20/21, Ethan Gardener <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> tl;dr: forget inferno, port plan 9 to the pine phone.
>
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, at 6:43 AM, Dave Eckhardt wrote:
>> > Anyone know if this project went anywhere?
>> >
>> > https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~412= /lectures/L05_Purge_Proposal.pdf
>
> I had to laugh at one of the slides. Inferno running natively on "= ;x86
> supercomputer"? I think implementing multicore support would be a= first
> step, not to mention 64-bit! While it would be nice if those jobs were= done,
> they will take time and effort. Overall, if porting natively, I see li= ttle
> sense in preferring Inferno to Plan 9, especially as Plan 9 already su= pports
> 64-bit multicore.
>
>> Sadly, not.  One issue is that modern Android releases don= 9;t
>> support 32-bit executables, and at the time that project was
>> attempted Inferno was somewhat 32-bit (I haven't looked since)= .
>
> Recalling the issues Hellaphone had and the time it took, I'm of t= he opinion
> that getting Inferno to work on any given phone's Linux kernel is = hardly
> more worthwhile than porting it directly to the hardware. The kernels = have
> undocumented interfaces.
>
> A current thread on OSdev (operating system development) forums is loo= king
> at phones. It's a little rambly, but it reports on some encouragin= g things.
> Lots of "baseband processors" (the phone-network communicati= on subsystems)
> have documented interfaces. There are at least 2 phones available now = which
> are fully open for operating system development: the PinePhone and the=
> Librem 5. (5 is the screen size.) Of the 2, the Pine Phone seems bette= r, not
> least because it can boot from the SD card; useful for testing.
> https://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?= f=3D1&t=3D53251
>
> There's also the option of building your own phone out of componen= ts. The
> thread has some info. I'm guessing most here would prefer a PinePh= one.
>
>> But I think I saw some recent-ish Inferno-on-Android activity here= :
>>
>>   https://github.com/bhgv/Inferno-OS-bhgv<= /a>
>
> That's probably a good source of code. bhgv is a freelance program= mer who
> was very interested in Inferno and made several improvements including=
> Truetype fonts. The last I heard was he tried to find paid work involv= ing
> Inferno but couldn't, so he didn't have time to work on it.
------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
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