Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the biggest outsider, as my career prior to diving into Plan 9 was classical violin. I brought an art mindset to an engineering ecosystem and used the opportunity to learn as much as I could from the Plan 9 guys, who I definitely considered my engineering heroes (and still do). I'll never forget the side conversations with jmk about how to go about testing kernel code and him bringing me "back down to Earth". One of many little encounters that honestly have made me into a much more refined engineer today. Albeit, with still quite a ways to grow :-)

I think it may just be harder for us "old heads" to understand how to fit in with the modern communication style here. And I don't say this to be fiery or disrespectful, but a lot of the discussions come off paranoid and inflammatory while simultaneously accusing everyone *else* of being quite the same. It's very strange and is a big reason a lot of people have left or just choose to lurk.

That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good start...

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:57 AM sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:

15.05.2024 16:18:49 Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com>:
> This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the fashion he writes them currently.

I didn't know that he's been here for so long. It's sad that you both perceive the state of the mailing list community as it is.

I can also totally see that vic is trying to help. I just see that the help he's providing in the last few months wasn't very helpful, and it also wasn't well perceived by all readers.

However, I can also only judge from my perspective, and I'm only here for a few years now.

> Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a useful path forward.

I personally consider it a valid move to ask a LLM for help writing mails. It's just weird to do that on a mailing list like this. I doubt that vic used an AI or anything (I mean, why would he lie).

I can also see one or the other trolling attempt here, and I see only a few different reasons for that:

(1) People are tired because they're always reading the same arguments and defending themselves for the 1000th time. It's understandable that somw develop a trolling tone.

(2) People have fun trolling other people. In my opinion this belongs into human communication to some extent, but it shouldn't be endorsed and it should only happen in some safe space. On this mailing list, this is sometimes too much.

(3) People are trolls. In this case we're out of luck.

> There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial operations/offerings, but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever this mailing list has become.

(Still interested in learning about them.)

Sorry, I can't really perceive "whatever this mailing list has become". I'm not here for too long, and I probably don't see it as critical as you. I should note however that 9fans threads often are either non-existent (the list is very silent), half-dead or total drama (as this giga-thread). Compared to the 9front mailing list, there's almost only constructive work, feedback, steps forward.

I also notice that there's barely any software development going on here (almost no patches, no discussion). Is this because the mailing list evolved like that and people don't want to contribute in that environment, or is it the reason why it evolved like that?

Funnily enough, the 9fans discord community is very nice, helpful, I can barely see any trolling attempt at all (at least I can't remember anything like that).

sirjofri

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