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Wed, 15 May 2024 09:20:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4FB3A3BB-1CFA-4BC7-9DC2-CC9138B8325C@gmail.com> <2ff4cb73-352f-44e1-844b-5bb6cc92e1fe@posixcafe.org> <04a0afc1-6440-47b3-957c-0071ad88b117@posixcafe.org> In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 12:20:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000069d5100618807eb3 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 07198c32-12d7-11ef-8081-135ffc8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQzZGMwYzkzMDM5YTdkMi1NNzM2NjI2OTkxYTY1MzVlN2JiMDEw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZDI2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M736626991a6535e7bb010d26:1:NCGXW1AupJNfyGHFtiStZlNAmvVy6DgcqDbkvBgrWWs --00000000000069d5100618807eb3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing them off as "emotional". I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you shouldn't have removed it. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:12=E2=80=AFPM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fan= s.net> wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > > It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the > > complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? > What > > degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the > > consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into tho= se > > bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and > > maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if y= ou > > constantly bother with them. > > Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who > just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling > his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and "running > great" are mutually exclusive. > > > It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a > code-centric > > community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's > > problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be > > coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data > > backs that up? > > It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously! If that > had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front > probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil. But > your "point to the code" demand is not a great look. That *is* more > like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports. In a way, deleting > Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has > stopped corrupting my data for sure. So there's the code causing the > problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue. Nobody > owes you a scientific analysis. > > But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front > tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive > timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have. > > > So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this > list. > > Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling = or > > "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's > be > > prescriptive, instead. >=20 > No, not "anything." Specifically this Fossil nonsense. I don't know > why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not > really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward > problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that > weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually > understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not > interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to > delete the code. >=20 > Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this. Anyone who > wants Fossil can install it. If you want a 'canonical' Fossil, upload > it somewhere and canonize it. Problem solved. >=20 > As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a > commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pretty > gross. We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will never > give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and I > don't understand why it matters at all. >=20 > khm ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M73662= 6991a6535e7bb010d26 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000069d5100618807eb3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Again, this is a core example I'm talking = about. In this email you've called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while i= gnoring my concerns and brushing them off as "emotional". 
I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am a= sking for, not even demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted i= ssue. Pointing at the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literal= ly the opposite. It's asking to demonstrate and document the issues, in= stead of asserting that something is awful because /you/ have had an emotio= nal reaction to it failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What cod= e is bad? Why is the code bad? If you can't answer these questions= , maybe you shouldn't have removed it. 

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:12 PM Kurt H = Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net&= gt; wrote:
On = Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember t= he
> complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? = What
> degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the
> consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into th= ose
> bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge a= nd
> maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if = you
> constantly bother with them.

Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who
just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling
his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and &= quot;running
great" are mutually exclusive. 

> It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a cod= e-centric
> community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's=
> problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that = to be
> coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What da= ta
> backs that up?

It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously! = If that
had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front
probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil.&nbs= p; But
your "point to the code" demand is not a great look.  That *= is* more
like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports.  In a way, deletin= g
Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has
stopped corrupting my data for sure.  So there's the code causing = the
problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue.  Nobody owes you a scientific analysis. 

But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front
tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have.
> So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this l= ist.
> Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling= or
> "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismi= ssal. Let's be
> prescriptive, instead.

No, not "anything."  Specifically this Fossil nonsense. = ; I don't know
why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not
really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward
problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that<= br /> weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually
understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not
interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to delete the code. 

Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this.  Anyo= ne who
wants Fossil can install it.  If you want a 'canonical' Fossil= , upload
it somewhere and canonize it.  Problem solved.

As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a
commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pr= etty
gross.  We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will = never
give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and = I
don't understand why it matters at all.

khm

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
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