This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the fashion he writes them currently. Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a useful path forward. There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial operations/offerings, but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever this mailing list has become. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:00 AM wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote: > > Hey vic, > ... > > Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again > > carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely > > understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of > > earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you. > > Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but > > for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may > > revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away. > > > > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones > > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their > > stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to > > organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for > > bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the > > documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level > > organization when there is no top-level. > > Thanks, Sirjofri, I really appreciate your message. > > I'll keep things more casual in this message. I didn't use Strunk & White, > which would have really annoyed people, but I agree that my posts have been > rushed and barely revised. > > I wanted to classify the topics to see if anyone was already working on > them as it wasn't apparent. Some developers can be very territorial, and I > didn't want to step into a mess. My plan was to ask around next. I see > that the current team is very happy with the status quo. > > If the hacker culture rules are necessary, I'm definitely not a good fit. > I should step aside to avoid being disruptive. I've been programming for a > long time, and I work in a very different manner. I'd rather avoid the > drama I've experienced the past few days. I can only imagine the hell it > must be to contribute. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just > looking back on the hazing that has been happening. **heavy sigh** > > I was told this is a flat model, yet I see there is a meritocracy and > outdated rules as well as too much hazing occurring. Hazing alone is enough > to off put someone. I surmise there is too much entitlement occurring which > results in both hazing and a cancel culture. I am not trying to persuade > you or anyone on 9fans, but rather I just want to show you what I see. > I've worked on 160 million USD projects and have needed to fix personnel > issues. I know this is not a company, but anyone that cannot see there are > issues here has their head in the sand. I hope you take my comments as > constructive. The intention of my comments to make things better. > > You've helped me see that I'm not a good cultural fit, which is good to > know early. > > Again, thank you very much for your advice. Let me share a letter with > you that I wrote to Bakul and then I'll leave 9fans. > Thank you and goodbye. > > Hi Bakul, > > Thanks for reaching out. I trust you are well. > > I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using > for years, circa 2006. 9legacy and 9front are great, but I find it > challenging to contribute. However, the 9legacy community has > been much more friendly and helpful as you can imagine. I am > grateful for past help. > > Whenever I witness the challenges faced between 9legacy and > 9front communities, I can't help but feel responsible. > > Looking back, I see that my youthful inexperience played a role > in deepening the rift between Plan 9 and what would become > 9front. At the time, I failed to bridge the gap between influential > opposition members, such as Uriel and 20h, and the foundational > members of the community, like Russ Cox and others. Now, as I > contemplate my legacy, my goal was to somehow mend the > division and foster unity among the communities before my time > ends. I think I could have prevented the need for 9front years ago > and the community would had been in a better state today. That > is my biggest regret that I have. That is one reason why I isolate > myself. I am just not a good mediator nor communicator. > > Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my > idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened > to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. > > Kind regards, > Vic > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M5510db83fdf07db7d4b43af5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription