From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E0A2428E for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:44:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32B22D5CA for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM49c3ee9d437d123d75160dc8.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id BFD462F05105; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:58 -0500 (EST) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Pv0076fR header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:list-help:list-id:list-post :list-subscribe:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1706201098; bh=bXnqgE1qgeTCfCVj 0yOXr601lzhJOk07F80/LQgc3T0=; b=Tg1JdmiaCEn1qckrfUdqmrXrhKYc1trp nBCwQFQBUZemw9G6mizqqPpwBtIVyxVbT02ZXMgCtP4pR/8IVLth+aDlMSCE/vCq 79xOScOKqrilWopMLrnYHCjpNrUy64fkmDA7OAjXFKwTn8RZYnWeoYG3sl/4ItYM eM4+pKRXLJo= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1706201098; b=OL2bu9aKHkAKTKCNsbWWGM/T2mGOSNM9OHsaueMfQmcxsCXseg szXIIq6eE+gYFWBZ0yJCp7MTHzjhSEiiF2TBo84sze8fi1rMuh9OnFhPKrOdVkXB BF5px94WvXNdm+xXCZzqrhjnhc70U39Ft59g5NF8SEL0nsuRffnS5t+gs= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Pv0076fR header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Pv0076fR header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.160.180 (mail-qt1-f180.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=s8AbO1Hk; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com policy.ptr=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject :to:content-type:list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe :reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; t=1706201098; x=1706287498; bh=pU3lGlVJqbJ50pEQgAN5veG2Tp9FhvWw V1Vt1188/sc=; b=QVI71ztLccJYf/MFNMwuZGL2Kk2hsAg4NwjRSNCxVZMppdH/ TV63xBsHWTgJ1wVbYtPt/fCeh6nbpjRYcyllZAnPRlfLMwjcI8FLeKtNFmARwqof JGxc80NsEWeZ97UccMSFTdN+z2YbTrpqXylZsJhHkdKxl8K0+Qg2GDs6fSA= Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78939A41279 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from don.bailey@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id D76DCA052D4; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:47 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1706201087; b=Q+6LK4vLChJtXcrqu2nyvhEzCBGOWPMPk9C/ZhKfbQUM09TcYl wzBoCS9V3aFFyZDC2ZbjvNJ7oEvwdoT3pW7fiiIi9aIIQGJWs83CcdTLuOMLn5Z4 CKoPxjcaCQPs9ypyEuXYgCWSX1MCkqBwqkLoPZVYPv/h7FeN1kIMDZONaic4aVV1 h2df/REPjTxPyQbXj0yqppJWmpv+lAzbUuTZP4O/9sRLLaNyCvQiLgjIu2QiYlaz QBVjGhE25UvA7cwN6n/CVVSGxTx/r6KT5FHChkdGCrd525qE6SLkUogqDU27QD6q nSZjw9vZQEREu9hfGXgdP5csRF4WW6Ea6vJQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; s=arcseal; t=1706201087; bh=tErolEG/MDd6U3VVartRvU9+JksY4cZRVAA0V7/JAsM=; b=oouiwuhJHhza vtyWxi9N+gvj7mFyFIeevtQpSS4J8RDMRCFlRuShaTUk70Hx5c+YX1LVxd2seUv5 YiOxpLNzp9Hw3ly2V+3qlmxRB2ckCTod3r+OOdHeQ8kmu/kQu+CimxD68fjkaCS6 6yhl9qSH0JnF0fq5JXRJPV3PuR/QE0qSkjTgLZJrfWsWsnbejOh+Fc8HAr0NZ6hM KerKcIQD7xqTTCkJ94eiFvgpKX7DmdWGTf/+fzXjTGiOsYECS48P+pSWRLysX3Oc cuLxw2fyLjMqzsDNUAsEFXuPYMxXWM/vpDDw8oqBdX4xpo6hy69lGB7UgfMJrfpz U5S/RT57kw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Pv0076fR header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.160.180 (mail-qt1-f180.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=s8AbO1Hk; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com policy.ptr=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdelhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurf hrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpuffrtefo kffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepgghfjgfhfffkuf fvtgesrgdtreertddtjeenucfhrhhomhepffhonhcuuegrihhlvgihuceoughonhdrsggr ihhlvgihsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgjefffeeggffgle eigfejkeegffdtjefgleduteduudelgfeugfeuuedvhfeuteenucffohhmrghinhepthho phhitggsohigrdgtohhmnecukfhppedvtdelrdekhedrudeitddrudektdenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedvtdelrdekhedrudeitddrudek tddphhgvlhhopehmrghilhdqqhhtuddqfhdukedtrdhgohhoghhlvgdrtghomhdpmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpeeoughonhdrsggrihhlvgihsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqe X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'don.bailey@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="don.bailey@gmail.com"; helo=mail-qt1-f180.google.com; client-ip=209.85.160.180 Received: from mail-qt1-f180.google.com (mail-qt1-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from don.bailey@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt1-f180.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-429be992974so38749241cf.2 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 08:44:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1706201086; x=1706805886; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tErolEG/MDd6U3VVartRvU9+JksY4cZRVAA0V7/JAsM=; b=s8AbO1HkYy3/fzm+L7hCaCJokZAzHbSx1mD6H8svUzA1B4iG+XAStFpA8Nl8tLECj7 on+8/GUzYLE1edwaSX26rLhD3FUBkMPZouW63eZOZRodS7weGHonOmpv7rHrGnFr/6rG 2PmbFmr+bY6O99tk8Bl5uOWGr5xwvRFdyAjYTs2HxiiThkP6dOXaKvBt92HTqtJzjQ8G ULnel9//yk9AMUC8zsHqyFGtKaE8A9+QJSRgXZCaBQxgQFio7+uTk4bgDaHHG1mM0+F0 PlJVP28OiON+wXDqk3bzgSrnnRTMvC/AsxvVjo/OiSU6kZckVhEPQ/MBGUujh24cIcXR sTHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yys5v8ZVL12YxhsU6jir0i1LAaBifgsQAWbW46PJqMAX7rn5Kjt bLr2HvGJhgX51Ef8SO1lhbc6/dnO9mMPQoxVKLgCeTmB/0dajhpLC6ndqyRvMefCHT12kxzVKt4 Q/BCEfCOU7SD13EoJu2aO897O4DT+s6oR X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHvPyS8sDSzGjH07r7SKp60NkYYC/1R4J6cFlblekW00jE4lJi3B06xril9k24je2WKIIeCFOdF++7+wBbSuww= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e4f:0:b0:42a:71b7:3046 with SMTP id e15-20020ac84e4f000000b0042a71b73046mr465647qtw.34.1706201085902; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 08:44:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000a40771060fc7e544 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0fc2f036-bba1-11ee-8934-adc5897bcc70 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDljM2VlOWQ0MzdkMTIzZDc1MTYw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGM4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M49c3ee9d437d123d75160dc8:1:8w5flpIeAdPb_Sel7lHpAGbAw6DxcFLfayt9vY19R7Y --000000000000a40771060fc7e544 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a user and a developer. I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. D On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> w= rote: > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2= =80=99d > prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only > receive patches through them. >=20 > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? >=20 > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. >=20 > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > email) received from them. >=20 > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. >=20 > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > members are able to contribute quite effectively. >=20 > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > blackjack and hookers. In my head. >=20 > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > another patch to sources some day soon. >=20 > hiro ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M49c3e= e9d437d123d75160dc8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000a40771060fc7e544 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure what all this was, so I = didn't read most of it. 

If 9front beco= mes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a u= ser and a developer. 

I trust the sources t= hat come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest in the mess of= whatever 9front is supposed to be. 

D
On = Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> I am not a fan of the weird 9front sp= lit from the standard repo. I’d prefer the sources to be managed by t= he foundation and would like to only receive patches through them.
Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
"manage" something. for example  development and continuous = hosting of
the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.

I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
email) received from them.

I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off&qu= ot;
is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.

It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
members are able to contribute quite effectively.

To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
blackjack and hookers. In my head.

Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
another patch to sources some day soon.

hiro

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b= 48
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription
= --000000000000a40771060fc7e544--