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Wed, 15 May 2024 08:53:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4FB3A3BB-1CFA-4BC7-9DC2-CC9138B8325C@gmail.com> <2ff4cb73-352f-44e1-844b-5bb6cc92e1fe@posixcafe.org> <04a0afc1-6440-47b3-957c-0071ad88b117@posixcafe.org> In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 11:53:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000048bcf40618801fa1 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4fd226cc-12d3-11ef-b8aa-9c4524925ac4 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQzZGMwYzkzMDM5YTdkMi1NNTllZDM2OTcxNGE1MDU4NDY0ZDk1?= =?UTF-8?B?MGNjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M59ed369714a5058464d950cc:1:ZhG5U88fTXknarKeq35vlczGSUaw1YegFI7NO3oMqnw --00000000000048bcf40618801fa1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you constantly bother with them. It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a code-centric community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data backs that up? So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this list. Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's be prescriptive, instead. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fan= s.net> wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > > But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their > removal. > > You've been on this list a while. You should remember therefore that > Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*. > Specifically, people kept reporting that Fossil had beshit their data, > and other people deemed that a skill issue and insisted Fossil was fine. > As bug fixes trickled out, Fossil continued to be fine, and people's > data kept getting corrupted. Maybe Fossil is fixed now! Maybe it > isn't! It's not worth finding out, and the situation was never helped > by the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" crowd refusing to take bug > reports -- and actively attacking bug reporters. > > So, the backstory of Fossil on 9fans is what led to it getting deleted. > Asking for 'evidence' is just more of the same gaslighting that happened > on this very list. > > > How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested? > etc. >=20 > Not how it works. The burden of support is on the distributor. Part of > forking software is, when it breaks, people come knocking on your > door/mailing list/ircnet complaining that "your" software ate their > computer. We *knew* Fossil was unreliable, so continuing to ship it in > that state was idiotic. Removing it was an act of self-defense and/or > housekeeping, depending on how militant you like your metaphors. >=20 > Meanwhile, since the defossilization of 9front, Fossil itself continued > to receive attention. It sounds like the sp9sss dropped the ball on > coordinating some of that, but we are assured that Fossil is great now. > The problem is: we were assured Fossil was great then, too, especially > when it wasn't. Therefore it is the burden of the Chamber of Fossil > Fraternity Et Exuberance to prove that it is stable, and test it to such > a degree that it's worth considering again. The rest of us are tired of > driving in that circle. >=20 > You can even store it on our sources server, or put the code on our git9 > repo host. We don't hate Fossil users. We just don't want to take > responsibility for it. >=20 > khm ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M59ed3= 69714a5058464d950cc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000048bcf40618801fa1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. = I was here, I remember the complains with Fossil. But to what degree was th= at /actually/ Fossil? What degree was it the configurations, the hardware, = the firmware, the consistency of management/usage? What investigations have= gone into those bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some= knowledge and maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run= great if you constantly bother with them. 

It is= n't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a code-centric = community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's prob= lematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be coy= ... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data backs= that up? 

So this is, again, the problem I= have with what has occurred on this list. Anything certain parties here di= sagree with is brushed off as trolling or "gaslighting" or any ot= her such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's be prescriptive, inste= ad. 

D


On Wed, May = 15, 2024 at 11:40 AM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, = Don Bailey wrote:
> But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their
removal.

You've been on this list a while.  You should remember therefore t= hat   
Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*.
Specifically, people kept reporting that Fossil had beshit their data, = ;
and other people deemed that a skill issue and insisted Fossil was fine. As bug fixes trickled out, Fossil continued to be fine, and people's&nb= sp;  
data kept getting corrupted.  Maybe Fossil is fixed now!  Maybe i= t
isn't!  It's not worth finding out, and the situation was neve= r helped 
by the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" crowd refusing to take bug=
reports -- and actively attacking bug reporters.

So, the backstory of Fossil on 9fans is what led to it getting deleted.
Asking for 'evidence' is just more of the same gaslighting that hap= pened
on this very list.

> How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested? etc.

Not how it works.  The burden of support is on the distributor.  = Part of
forking software is, when it breaks, people come knocking on your
door/mailing list/ircnet complaining that "your" software ate the= ir     
computer.  We *knew* Fossil was unreliable, so continuing to ship it i= n
that state was idiotic.  Removing it was an act of self-defense and/or=  
housekeeping, depending on how militant you like your metaphors.

Meanwhile, since the defossilization of 9front, Fossil itself continued
to receive attention.  It sounds like the sp9sss dropped the ball on&n= bsp;  
coordinating some of that, but we are assured that Fossil is great now.
The problem is: we were assured Fossil was great then, too, especially = ;
when it wasn't.  Therefore it is the burden of the Chamber of Foss= il   
Fraternity Et Exuberance to prove that it is stable, and test it to such a degree that it's worth considering again.  The rest of us are ti= red of
driving in that circle.

You can even store it on our sources server, or put the code on our git9 repo host.   We don't hate Fossil users.  We just don= 9;t want to take   
responsibility for it.

khm

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
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