From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <75E643D1-A04F-4418-AFB0-6E6A7EB21CA1@yingmi.cn> References: <7715F725-C18F-42C0-9169-A507F12BDD27@airmail.cc> <0D1DE354-BD92-4969-9AC7-F6ABA745EA95@yingmi.cn> <81111AFC-BFA1-4C66-8492-DDDFE25DDC9D@gmail.com> <75E643D1-A04F-4418-AFB0-6E6A7EB21CA1@yingmi.cn> From: Tyga Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 16:36:21 +1000 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075be65056f85b7c4" Subject: Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for? Topicbox-Message-UUID: d8ddbc50-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --00000000000075be65056f85b7c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: your comment about trackpad / vertical mouse. I had a similar RSI problem a couple of years ago. I solved it by using a Logitech trackball with my right hand - but only to move the cursor and I used a MS optical mouse with the tracking window taped over so that I would only use it to click or scroll with the left hand. I had to tape over the window so that moving the mouse wouldn't actually move the pointer which I had carefully positioned with the trackball. Cured the RSI and now able to even use a normal trackpad on a notebook for short periods of time. But I do prefer to use my desktop for serious amounts of work. On 26 June 2018 at 13:24, =E5=88=98=E5=AE=87=E5=AE=9D = wrote: > // seems this email was lost according to http://marc.info/?l=3D9fans, se= nd > again, sorry if duplicated. > > On Jun 24, 2018, at 5:12 PM, =E5=88=98=E5=AE=87=E5=AE=9D wrote: > > Very like your comment, thanks! On macOS I mainly use iTerm2 + VIM + SSH = + > Firefox, if Plan 9 had a decent native web browser I may use 9front for > serious daily work. I don't care much native app stack because I mainly d= o > Python/Java/Node on remote Linux server. > > I hate trackpad, it hurts my wrists, I just got a cheap vertical mouse, > may buy Evoluent mouse later. Meanwhile, I was wondering whether trackbal= l > will heal my wrists more. > > Recently I read Rob Pike's "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant", I > felt pity, and I was wondering what the operating system would look like = in > the future, here is my stupid optimistic predication: > > =E2=80=A2 Server hardware will become extreme powerful, TB DRAM, > non-volatile memory, NVMe disk, 100Gb ethernet, the paradigm of separate > cpu server, file server, (a little fat) terminals will come back to be > mainstream, network of piles of cheap PCs will go away. > =E2=80=A2 Linux=EF=BC=8Ceven BSD=EF=BC=8Cbecame the underlying de= vice driver and "BIOS", > this is almost the current situation, Linux KVM, Xen + Linux dom0 hide > details of hardware. This layer takes care maximum hardware support and r= aw > performance. > =E2=80=A2 *Distributed* operating systems above KVM/Xen will step= into a > period of great development, hardware support and maximum raw performance > are not top priorities, *OS native* fault tolerance, simple and clear > distributed process scheduling, easy and consistent IPC/RPC API will win, > Google Kubernetes will die. Many ideas of Plan 9 will revive, just like > memory garbage collecting revived after about 30 years. > > Regards, > Yubao Liu > > > > > From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net <9fans-bounces@9fans.net> on behalf of > Rui Carmo > > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 5:06 PM > > To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > > Subject: Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for? > > > > I=E2=80=99m late to the thread, but this seems like a good point to ste= p in. > > > > I=E2=80=99m using plan9 on a quad-core Raspberry Pi as a sort of univer= sal > terminal to manage some of my home machines, and recently deleted the > 9front VM I had on my home KVM server because even though the programming > model and Go support were nice, most of my day-to-day work is on cloud > solutions and there was no easy way to make those co-exist with Plan9 usa= ge. > > > > There were a few discussions in this thread around dev stacks, browsers= , > etc., and my $0.02 on that is that I could probably work in Plan9 on a > daily basis _if_ it had a usable (i.e., all the warts including JavaScrip= t > and fonts) web browser, but that the lack of alignment (intended or > otherwise) with Linux tools and app stacks (SSH, Node, Python, Java) woul= d > make it very painful. > > > > Running a remote browser (which is what I do often in that Pi) sort of > works, but you never get the full benefits you=E2=80=99d get with a nativ= e process. > And lack of access to modern app stacks renders the platform unattractive > for mainstream development work. > > > > But what killed it for me was the need for chording (mouse or keys). > Using a modern trackpad on a MacBook or Surface device is a quantum leap > beyond using a mouse for general use, and the lack of a modernised Rio wi= th > enough thoughtful design to overcome the differences in philosophy is the > first barrier to continued usage. > > > > Acme is something I miss on occasion, but modern GUI editors compensate > in other ways (at the expense of resource usage, etc., but with a massive > boost in productivity for me). Also, I=E2=80=99m typing this on an iMac 5= K with > nearly unmatched font rendering and legibility (the only thing that comes > close is the Surface Pro alongside it). Visuals matter a great deal. > > > > There is an unmatchable degree of purity in Plan9, but (even though the > diehards will stick their ground and claim it=E2=80=99s perfect to the ex= clusion of > other modern comforts) to coexist successfully it has to provide more > affordances. > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > R. > > > > > On 14 Jun 2018, at 04:53, =E5=88=98=E5=AE=87=E5=AE=9D wrote: > > > > > > Compared to "not for you", "don't care", "intend to not be > successful", I like more the topic of cat-v irc channel on freenode set b= y > aiju: "fun fact: you can use multiple operating systems at the same time= ". > > > > > > Certainly Plan 9 can't replace Linux/macOS/BSD/Windows, I'm still > curious its upper bound for a sensible daily usage, and the best practic= e > from you happy experienced Plan 9 users. > > > > > > I checked mail headers in this mailing list, seems all use Apple Mail= , > iPhone Mail, WebMail with AJAX, Gmail(a lot), ProtonMail, these emails > went through Postfix and Exim servers, probably on Linux. > > > > > > In great harmony, we use kinds of operating system and kinds of > software on them. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Yubao Liu > > > > > >> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:53 AM, N. S. Montanaro wrote= : > > >> > > >> I think a lot of people discover Plan 9 and want it to be something > it isn=E2=80=99t, rather than stumble upon it out of necessity. As the FQ= A says, > =E2=80=9CPlan 9 is not for you." > > > > > --00000000000075be65056f85b7c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re: your comment about trackpad / vertical mouse.

=
I had a similar RSI problem a couple of years ago.=C2=A0 I solve= d it by using a Logitech trackball with my right hand - but only to move th= e cursor and I used a MS optical mouse with the tracking window taped over = so that I would only use it to click or scroll with the left hand.=C2=A0 I = had to tape over the window so that moving the mouse wouldn't actually = move the pointer which I had carefully positioned with the trackball.=C2=A0= Cured the RSI and now able to even use a normal trackpad on a notebook for= short periods of time.=C2=A0 But I do prefer to use my desktop for serious= amounts of work.



On 26 June 2018 at 13:24, =E5=88= =98=E5=AE=87=E5=AE=9D <liuyubao@yingmi.cn> wrote:
// seems this email was lost according to http:= //marc.info/?l=3D9fans, send again, sorry if duplicated.

On Jun 24, 2018, at 5:12 PM, =E5=88=98=E5=AE=87=E5=AE=9D <liuyubao@yingmi.cn> wrote:

Very like your comment, thanks! On macOS I mainly use iTerm2 + VIM + SSH + = Firefox, if Plan 9 had a decent native web browser I may use 9front for ser= ious daily work. I don't care much native app stack because I mainly do= Python/Java/Node on remote Linux server.

I hate trackpad, it hurts my wrists, I just got a cheap vertical mouse, may= buy Evoluent mouse later. Meanwhile, I was wondering whether trackball wil= l heal my wrists more.

Recently I read Rob Pike's "Systems Software Research is Irrelevan= t", I felt pity, and I was wondering what the operating system would l= ook like in the future,=C2=A0 here is my stupid optimistic predication:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Server hardware will become extreme p= owerful,=C2=A0 TB DRAM, non-volatile memory, NVMe disk, 100Gb ethernet, the= paradigm of separate cpu server, file server, (a little fat) terminals wil= l come back to be mainstream,=C2=A0 network of piles of cheap PCs will go a= way.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Linux=EF=BC=8Ceven BSD=EF=BC=8Cbecame= the underlying device driver and "BIOS", this is almost the curr= ent situation, Linux KVM, Xen + Linux dom0 hide details of hardware. This l= ayer takes care maximum hardware support and raw performance.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 *Distributed* operating systems above= KVM/Xen will step into a period of great development, hardware support and= maximum raw performance are not top priorities, *OS native* fault toleranc= e, simple and clear distributed process scheduling, easy and consistent IPC= /RPC API will win, Google Kubernetes will die. Many ideas of Plan 9 will re= vive, just like memory garbage collecting revived after about 30 years.

Regards,
Yubao Liu

>
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.n= et <9fans-bounces@9fans.n= et> on behalf of Rui Carmo <rui.carmo@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 5:06 PM
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Subject: Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?
>=C2=A0
> I=E2=80=99m late to the thread, but this seems like a good point to st= ep in.
>
> I=E2=80=99m using plan9 on a quad-core Raspberry Pi as a sort of unive= rsal terminal to manage some of my home machines, and recently deleted the = 9front VM I had on my home KVM server because even though the programming m= odel and Go support were nice, most of my day-to-day work is on cloud solut= ions and there was no easy way to make those co-exist with Plan9 usage.
>
> There were a few discussions in this thread around dev stacks, browser= s, etc., and my $0.02 on that is that I could probably work in Plan9 on a d= aily basis _if_ it had a usable (i.e., all the warts including JavaScript a= nd fonts) web browser, but that the lack of alignment (intended or otherwis= e) with Linux tools and app stacks (SSH, Node, Python, Java) would make it = very painful.
>
> Running a remote browser (which is what I do often in that Pi) sort of= works, but you never get the full benefits you=E2=80=99d get with a native= process. And lack of access to modern app stacks renders the platform unat= tractive for mainstream development work.
>
> But what killed it for me was the need for chording (mouse or keys). U= sing a modern trackpad on a MacBook or Surface device is a quantum leap bey= ond using a mouse for general use, and the lack of a modernised Rio with en= ough thoughtful design to overcome the differences in philosophy is the fir= st barrier to continued usage.
>
> Acme is something I miss on occasion, but modern GUI editors compensat= e in other ways (at the expense of resource usage, etc., but with a massive= boost in productivity for me). Also, I=E2=80=99m typing this on an iMac 5K= with nearly unmatched font rendering and legibility (the only thing that c= omes close is the Surface Pro alongside it). Visuals matter a great deal. >
> There is an unmatchable degree of purity in Plan9, but (even though th= e diehards will stick their ground and claim it=E2=80=99s perfect to the ex= clusion of other modern comforts) to coexist successfully it has to provide= more affordances.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> R.
>
> > On 14 Jun 2018, at 04:53, =E5=88=98=E5=AE=87=E5=AE=9D <liuyubao@yingmi.cn> wrote:
> >
> > Compared to "not for you", "don't care",= =C2=A0 "intend to not be successful", I like more the topic of ca= t-v irc channel on freenode set by aiju:=C2=A0 "fun fact: you can use = multiple operating systems at the same time".
> >
> > Certainly Plan 9 can't replace Linux/macOS/BSD/Windows, I'= ;m still curious its upper bound for a sensible daily usage,=C2=A0 and the = best practice from you happy experienced Plan 9 users.
> >
> > I checked mail headers in this mailing list, seems all use Apple = Mail, iPhone Mail, WebMail with AJAX, Gmail(a lot), ProtonMail,=C2=A0 these= emails went through Postfix and Exim servers, probably on Linux.
> >
> > In great harmony, we use kinds of operating system and kinds of s= oftware on them.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Yubao Liu
> >
> >> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:53 AM, N. S. Montanaro <nsm@airmail= .cc> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think a lot of people discover Plan 9 and want it to be som= ething it isn=E2=80=99t, rather than stumble upon it out of necessity. As t= he FQA says, =E2=80=9CPlan 9 is not for you."
> >


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