From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <157DDAE0-B239-41FB-B10F-AFCC3F45A18F@me.com> References: <57BB9228.5070600@gmail.com> <57BB98EC.6030507@gmail.com> <57BD601A.508@gmail.com> <157DDAE0-B239-41FB-B10F-AFCC3F45A18F@me.com> From: Nickolas Peter Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:00:16 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140c8e6ea3364053ad0dc3a Subject: Re: [9fans] Is 9Fans dead or alive Topicbox-Message-UUID: 988206d4-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001a1140c8e6ea3364053ad0dc3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brantley, I am by no means an experienced developer or Plan 9 user, so I can hardly speak from the same experience level as most (I assume) of the posters on this list. I only recently found myself very interested in Plan 9, C, and embedded systems. As of now, I only run 9front as a learning environment on series of virtual machines. It's really intriguing to hear that there's commercial hardware running Plan 9, and very motivating to see that there are still people utilizing Plan 9 in some way as a primary system. When you mentioned using Plan 9 in your shipping software, were you referring to some internal software that you use to handle shipping hardware to customers, or software that you sell to customers (say, to run on your hardware)? I'm interested to hear more about it, if you're at liberty to share. Nick On Wednesday, August 24, 2016, Brantley Coile wrote: > Some general comments. > > It=E2=80=99s good to see it used in at least a few places. It=E2=80=99s t= oo good a system > to be the only one using it. But I will until providence completely force= s > me to do otherwise, which I don=E2=80=99t anticipate. > > I=E2=80=99m really lucky to be able to use the system, especially in the = way it > was envisioned in the 1980=E2=80=99s. My first knowledge of it was when I= asked > Dennis Ritchie what was new. He said that Ken was playing around with the > concept of union directories. Later, during one of my visits to the Labs, > in 1988 I think, Dennis gave me a demonstration of the system. > > One problem with most people who haven=E2=80=99t been as fortunate as I h= ave, is > they really just need a single system, not a distributed system. While Pl= an > 9 makes a better single system for some things than most OSes, it=E2=80= =99s really > not supposed to have local disks at all. It really is designed to be a > larger distributed timesharing system. At Coraid, we had two setups, one = in > Athens and one in Redwood City, that supported over 100 users in total. A= nd > without a single dedicated system admin. It was a very part time job, > mostly for Erik, but Ian Ennis did some as well. It was very easy to mana= ge > because it was a single machine. > > As far as I know, SouthSuite is now the only company both using it as a > development system or shipping software based on Plan 9. Does anyone know > of any others? > > Different people choose tools for different reasons and to satisfy > different requirements the world places on them. I chose to work in > embedded appliances so I could pick the software I use. The PIX Firewall > was a bit too early for Plan 9=E2=80=94it was not yet released when I wro= te the > PIX=E2=80=94but it was very much of the spirit, as was the Cisco LocalDir= ector. > Soon, we began using the 1995 Plan 9 release and I have been using it > almost exclusively ever since. I use it as the sole development environme= nt > and as the base of the products we ship. > > In spite of our early success at Coraid with the SR, after the VC > investment the use of Plan 9 became controversial. It=E2=80=99s not what = others > use, and in Sand Land (what else can one call Silicon Valley) that makes > people nervous. Over my objections, the company attempted to move to Open > Solaris. It=E2=80=99s a truism that a company that changes operating syst= em goes > out of business, and Coraid, Inc. again proved that to be true. The reaso= n? > A small company can=E2=80=99t afford the retooling costs to switch to ano= ther > operating system. > > But things have turned out well anyway, at least for me and the > traditional Coraid users. Now I have everything from the trademark to the > source code and now offer the Coraid product as a software product and ca= n > support existing Coraid users, both with software updates and with help > getting their hardware fixed or replaced. We are helping all those folks > who bought Coraid gear continue to get value of their purchase. One fello= w > sent me a note showing that he=E2=80=99s been up over 2,000 days without = rebooting. > There=E2=80=99s never a reason to fork-lift an SR. > > I like to think we do a good job, but our performance, efficiency and low > cost is all made possible by the superior system that was developed by th= e > folks at the Labs from 1987 thru 2002. > > Brantley > --001a1140c8e6ea3364053ad0dc3a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brantley,

I am by no means an experienced developer o= r Plan 9 user, so I can hardly speak from the same experience level as most= (I assume) of the posters on this list.=C2=A0I only=C2=A0recently found my= self very interested in=C2=A0Plan 9, C, and embedded systems. As of now,=C2= =A0I only run 9front as a learning environment on=C2=A0series of virtual ma= chines.

It's really intriguing to hear that th= ere's commercial hardware running Plan 9, and very motivating to see th= at there are still people utilizing Plan 9 in some way as a primary system.=

When you mentioned using Plan 9 in your shipping = software, were you referring to some internal software that you use to hand= le shipping hardware to customers, or software that you sell to customers (= say, to run on your hardware)? I'm interested to hear more about it, if= you're at liberty to share.


Ni= ck


On Wednesday, August 24, 2016,= Brantley Coile <brantleycoile@m= e.com> wrote:
Some general comment= s.

It=E2=80=99s good to see it used in at least a few places. It=E2=80=99s too= good a system to be the only one using it. But I will until providence com= pletely forces me to do otherwise, which I don=E2=80=99t anticipate.

I=E2=80=99m really lucky to be able to use the system, especially in the wa= y it was envisioned in the 1980=E2=80=99s. My first knowledge of it was whe= n I asked Dennis Ritchie what was new. He said that Ken was playing around = with the concept of union directories. Later, during one of my visits to th= e Labs, in 1988 I think, Dennis gave me a demonstration of the system.

One problem with most people who haven=E2=80=99t been as fortunate as I hav= e, is they really just need a single system, not a distributed system. Whil= e Plan 9 makes a better single system for some things than most OSes, it=E2= =80=99s really not supposed to have local disks at all. It really is design= ed to be a larger distributed timesharing system. At Coraid, we had two set= ups, one in Athens and one in Redwood City, that supported over 100 users i= n total. And without a single dedicated system admin. It was a very part ti= me job, mostly for Erik, but Ian Ennis did some as well. It was very easy t= o manage because it was a single machine.

As far as I know, SouthSuite is now the only company both using it as a dev= elopment system or shipping software based on Plan 9. Does anyone know of a= ny others?

Different people choose tools for different reasons and to satisfy differen= t requirements the world places on them. I chose to work in embedded applia= nces so I could pick the software I use. The PIX Firewall was a bit too ear= ly for Plan 9=E2=80=94it was not yet released when I wrote the PIX=E2=80=94= but it was very much of the spirit, as was the Cisco LocalDirector. Soon, w= e began using the 1995 Plan 9 release and I have been using it almost exclu= sively ever since. I use it as the sole development environment and as the = base of the products we ship.

In spite of our early success at Coraid with the SR, after the VC investmen= t the use of Plan 9 became controversial. It=E2=80=99s not what others use,= and in Sand Land (what else can one call Silicon Valley) that makes people= nervous. Over my objections, the company attempted to move to Open Solaris= . It=E2=80=99s a truism that a company that changes operating system goes o= ut of business, and Coraid, Inc. again proved that to be true. The reason? = A small company can=E2=80=99t afford the retooling costs to switch to anoth= er operating system.

But things have turned out well anyway, at least for me and the traditional= Coraid users. Now I have everything from the trademark to the source code = and now offer the Coraid product as a software product and can support exis= ting Coraid users, both with software updates and with help getting their h= ardware fixed or replaced. We are helping all those folks who bought Coraid= gear continue to get value of their purchase. One fellow sent me a note sh= owing that he=E2=80=99s been up over 2,000 days without rebooting. There=E2= =80=99s never a reason to fork-lift an SR.

I like to think we do a good job, but our performance, efficiency and low c= ost is all made possible by the superior system that was developed by the f= olks at the Labs from 1987 thru 2002.

=C2=A0 Brantley
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