From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "James A. Robinson" Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:51:36 +0000 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07ef346366bf05410afb12 Subject: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: a9d5c3b2-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --94eb2c07ef346366bf05410afb12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Have folks seen https://puri.sm/ ? Their description of how they are trying to put together "open" hardware (not 100% there yet) makes me wonder if it'd be open enough w/re to hardware specs to make it a target for Plan 9 porting/support. Jim --94eb2c07ef346366bf05410afb12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have folks seen=C2=A0https://= puri.sm/=C2=A0?=C2=A0 Their description of how they are trying
to p= ut together "open" hardware (not 100% there yet) makes me wonder = if
it'd be open enough w/re to hardware specs to make it a ta= rget for Plan 9
porting/support.

Jim
=

--94eb2c07ef346366bf05410afb12-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Charles Forsyth Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:42:13 +0000 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144c396fcdec405410d5c97 Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa6793be-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001a1144c396fcdec405410d5c97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 11 November 2016 at 18:51, James A. Robinson wrote: > Have folks seen https://puri.sm/ ? Their description of how they are > trying > t > They look quite nice --001a1144c396fcdec405410d5c97 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On 11 November 2016 at 18:51, James A. Robinson <jim.robinson@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Have folks seen=C2=A0https:= //puri.sm/=C2=A0?=C2=A0 Their description of how they are trying
t<= /div>

They look quite nice
--001a1144c396fcdec405410d5c97-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Ryan Gonzalez Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:39:14 -0600 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e0da4abe35505410f007a Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa70f5d0-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001a113e0da4abe35505410f007a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those things really aren't cheap, are they... On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:51 PM, James A. Robinson wrote: > Have folks seen https://puri.sm/ ? Their description of how they are > trying > to put together "open" hardware (not 100% there yet) makes me wonder if > it'd be open enough w/re to hardware specs to make it a target for Plan 9 > porting/support. > > Jim > > --=20 Ryan (=E3=83=A9=E3=82=A4=E3=82=A2=E3=83=B3) Yoko Shimomura > ryo (supercell/EGOIST) > Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else http://kirbyfan64.github.io/ --001a113e0da4abe35505410f007a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Those things really aren't cheap, are they...

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016= at 12:51 PM, James A. Robinson <jim.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Have folks seen= =C2=A0https://puri.sm/= =C2=A0?=C2=A0 Their description of how they are trying
to put together = "open" hardware (not 100% there yet) makes me wonder if
it'd be open enough w/re to hardware specs to make it a target for Pla= n 9
porting/support.

Jim
<= br>



--
Ryan=C2=A0(=E3=83=A9=E3=82=A4=E3=82=A2=E3=83=B3)
Yoko Shimomura > ryo (supercell/EGOIST) > Hir= oyuki Sawano >> everyone else
--001a113e0da4abe35505410f007a-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "James A. Robinson" Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 00:07:42 +0000 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07ef34d4e38f05410f6535 Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa7772ca-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --94eb2c07ef34d4e38f05410f6535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 No, although I imagine you could just buy upgrade parts separately and put them in yourself. They appear to have designed the laptop to make it fairly easy to open up to add your own parts. What really disappoints me is how they are backordered for 1-2 months on the 13" and 6-7 months on the 15". I guess they haven't got enough traction yet to be on a regular build cycle (makes me think of the issues getting ahold of One Plus One phone). On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:41 PM Ryan Gonzalez wrote: > Those things really aren't cheap, are they... > --94eb2c07ef34d4e38f05410f6535 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, although I imagine you could just buy upgrade
part= s separately and put them in yourself.=C2=A0 They appear
to have = designed the laptop to make it fairly easy
to open up to add your= own parts.

What really disappoints me is how they= are backordered
for 1-2 months on the 13" and 6-7 months on= the 15". =C2=A0I
guess they haven't got enough traction= yet to be on a
regular build cycle (makes me think of the issues= getting
ahold of One Plus One phone).

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:41 PM = Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Those things really aren't cheap, are they...
=C2=A0
--94eb2c07ef34d4e38f05410f6535-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpcyBEb23DrW5ndWV6?= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:19:23 +0100 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa8052d2-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 2016-11-11 19:51 GMT+01:00 James A. Robinson : > Have folks seen https://puri.sm/ ? Their description of how they are try= ing > to put together "open" hardware (not 100% there yet) Do they really make open hardware? In what aspect is their hardware more open than any other laptop? Andr=C3=A9s makes me wonder if > it'd be open enough w/re to hardware specs to make it a target for Plan 9 > porting/support. > > Jim > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: "James A. Robinson" Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 11:22:12 -0800 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07ef347b308e05411f8856 Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa91ab90-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --94eb2c07ef347b308e05411f8856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Andr=C3=A9s Dom=C3=ADnguez wrote: > D=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bo they really make open hardware? In what aspect > is their hardware more open than any other laptop? Hi, A summary would bet hat typically the hardware drivers that are run on a computer come in two possible forms, either closed source or open source. A closed source driver, a binary blob, would have an externally documented API but nothing telling you what is going on inside the API to drive the hardware, it's a black box from our perspective, and of course it's an executable targeted at a specific OS such as Windows, or on the rare occasion Linux. An alternative is open source. Either the manufacturer is releasing the source code for the driver or they are documenting the details of the hardware internals and making it openly available, so that someone with motivation can write an open source driver. So I think that leaves us with three possible states for the components of a computer: 1. Undocumented hardware, and the manufacturer releases a black-box binary blob to drive it for a specific set of operating system. 2. Fully documented hardware, and someone has written an open source driver for the hardware. In some cases this a "white room" situation where one person signs an NDA in order to get the documents but are then allowed to release a freely available driver (I think this is the case with a few driver used in Linux on the Raspberry Pi). 3. Fully documented hardware and paired with an open source driver for the hardware from the manufacturer. I was having a discussion with someone about a variant of this issue a month ago. They planned to write a driver for a piece of hardware, but the ideal situation of the hardware specification being available was not the case. However, a Linux open source driver was available, so he thought he'd be able to examine that and reverse engineer it for Plan 9. Jim --94eb2c07ef347b308e05411f8856 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
= On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 8:19 AM,
Andr=C3= =A9s Dom=C3=ADnguez <andresdju@gm= ail.com> wrote:
> D=E2=80= =8B=E2=80=8Bo they really make open hardware? In what aspect
> is their hardware more open than any other laptop?=

Hi,

A summary would bet hat typically the hardware
drivers that are run on a computer come in=C2= =A0two possible<= /div>
forms,= either closed=C2=A0sou= rce or open source.=C2=A0 A closed
source=C2=A0driver, a binary=C2=A0blob, would have an externally
documented API=C2= =A0but nothing=C2=A0telling you what is going<= /span>
on inside the API to drive the hardware, it's=C2=A0a black=C2=A0box
from our perspective, and of course it's = an executable
targeted at a specific OS such as Windows, or on the<= /div>
rare o= ccasion Linux.

= An alternative is open source.=C2=A0 Either the manufacturer
is releasing the source code for the driver or they are
documenting the details of the hardware internals
and making it openly available, so that someone with
motivation can write an open source driver.

So I think that leaves us with three poss= ible states
for the components of a computer:

1. Undocumented hardware, and the manufacture= r
releases a black-box binary blob to drive it for a
=
sp= ecific set of=C2=A0operating system.

2.=C2=A0 Fully documented hardware, and someone has
written an open source driver for the har= dware. In
some cases this = a "white room" situation where one
person signs an NDA in order to get the documents=
<= span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">but are then allowed = to release a freely available driver
(I think=C2=A0this is=C2=A0the case with a few driver used in Linux
on=C2=A0the Raspberry Pi).

3. Fully documented hardware and paired with
an open source driver for the hardware from the=C2=A0<= /font>
manufacturer.=

I was having a discussion with someone about a<= /div>
variant of this issue a month ago.=C2=A0 They plann= ed to
write a driver for a piece of hardware, but t= he ideal
situation of the hardware specification be= ing available
was not the case. =C2=A0 However, a L= inux open source
driver was available, so he though= t he'd be able to
examine that and reverse engi= neer it for Plan 9.

Ji= m

--94eb2c07ef347b308e05411f8856-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Harri Haataja Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:10:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa97a310-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 12 November 2016 at 21:22, James A. Robinson wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 8:19 AM, > Andr=C3=A9s Dom=C3=ADnguez wrote: >> Do they really make open hardware? In what aspect >> is their hardware more open than any other laptop? > > A summary would bet hat typically the hardware > drivers that are run on a computer come in two possible > forms, either closed source or open source. https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ Indeed, blobs seems to be one point. Another thing seems to be that they advertise that these laptops have no hidden features or remote control. How they could claim to guarantee this and how a customer could possibly believe them, I don't know. Having hardware kill switches is also nice, but guarantees that they truly stop any access to camera, mic, or whatnot might be hard to make. Trust or no trust, they might be offering some desirable hardware there. --=20 I appear to be temporarily using gmail's horrible interface. I apologise for any failure in my part in trying to make it do the right thing with post formatting. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "James A. Robinson" Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 21:28:06 +0000 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d8b22f0576d054121485d Subject: Re: [9fans] Purism laptops Topicbox-Message-UUID: aaa2e1e4-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001a114d8b22f0576d054121485d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:12 PM Harri Haataja wrote: > https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ Indeed, blobs seems to be one point. > > Another thing seems to be that they advertise that these laptops > have no hidden features or remote control. How they could claim to > guarantee this and how a customer could possibly believe them, I > don't know. > > Having hardware kill switches is also nice, but guarantees that > they truly stop any access to camera, mic, or whatnot might be hard > to make. > > Trust or no trust, they might be offering some desirable hardware > there. Good points. Something that might have been unclear from my original use of the words "put together 'open' hardware" is that they are simply gathering together hardware from various vendors, not manufacturing the hardware themselves. They are assembling laptops and trying to work with vendors they find acceptable. But I wasn't so drawn by the privacy issues as I was to the idea of having a high end laptop that might be documented enough that one could port another OS to it. Jim --001a114d8b22f0576d054121485d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:12 PM Harri Haataja <realblades@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://puri.sm/learn= /blobs/ =C2=A0Indeed, blobs seems to be one point.
>
=
> Another thing seems to be that they advertise that these laptops<= /div>
> have no hidden features or remote control. How they could cl= aim to
> guarantee this and how a customer could possibly beli= eve them, I
> don't know.
>=C2=A0
&= gt; Having hardware kill switches is also nice, but guarantees that
> they truly stop any access to camera, mic, or whatnot might be hard=
> to make.
>=C2=A0
> Trust or no tr= ust, they might be offering some desirable hardware
> there.

Good points.=C2=A0 Something that might have been u= nclear from my
original use of the words "put together '= open' hardware" is that
they are simply gathering togeth= er hardware from various vendors,
not manufacturing the hardware = themselves.=C2=A0 They are assembling
laptops and trying to work = with vendors they find acceptable.

But I wasn'= t so drawn by the privacy issues as I was to the idea of
having a= high end laptop that might be documented enough that
one could p= ort another OS to it.

Jim

--001a114d8b22f0576d054121485d--