From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:00:45 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?QmVuY2UgRsOhYmnDoW4=?= To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cc01a720f1604ed967900 Subject: Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9 Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9bc5a540-ead8-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --089e013cc01a720f1604ed967900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bottomline is this: People would never use software like that. The ones who do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and cons years ago. 99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing list and watched this exact same exchange a dozen times. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride > I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or > program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called > an app. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The > underlying environment (including tools) determines the available > facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings > far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the > construction and operation of an app. The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 > bring considerable enhancements to such an environment. > > If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the > value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool > ideas with no end or purpose in mind? > > Blake > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence F=C3=A1bi=C3=A1n wrote: > >> If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and >> Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. >> >> Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps= . >> Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. = If >> you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device >> drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks th= at >> they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. >> >> >> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride >> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol wrote: >>> >>>> ..... The lack of a >>>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability >>>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal >>>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and >>>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox >>>> for P9P! >>> >>> .... >>>> >>> >>> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob >>> Pike's comments at: >>> >>> http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ >>> >>> and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I >>> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. >>> >>> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better >>> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-shar= e. >>> Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the >>> technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do large= ly >>> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the >>> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) >>> >>> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of >>> mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows= & >>> Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functi= onal >>> browser. >>> >>> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 >>> has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best >>> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think= the >>> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and >>> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I unders= tand >>> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and >>> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-= 9 >>> proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk d= id >>> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring it= s >>> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing >>> technology like Linux. >>> >>> Just some thoughts. >>> >>> Blake McBride >>> >>> >>> >> > --089e013cc01a720f1604ed967900 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bottomline is this: People would never use software like t= hat. The ones who do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and= cons years ago. 99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing l= ist and watched this exact same exchange a dozen times.


2013/12= /15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
I, respectfully, disagree. =C2=A0The end purpose of any OS= , platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. =C2=A0That end = function is called an app. =C2=A0An app can be targeted at a programmer or = a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the av= ailable facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. =C2=A0U= nix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window f= or the construction and operation of an app. =C2=A0The new ideas embodied i= n Plan-9 bring considerable enhancements to such an environment.

If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, w= hat is the value of Plan-9? =C2=A0Am I just going to spend all day playing = with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? =C2=A0

Blake



On= Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence F=C3=A1bi=C3=A1n &l= t;begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:
If bringing Plan 9 to the m= asses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it til= l my dying breath.

Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use= apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate th= at. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write= device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML fol= ks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.


2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
On S= un, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> = wrote:
..... =C2=A0The lack of a
web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. =C2=A0Thanks to Russ Cox = for P9P!=C2=A0
....

This is a great segue into a point= I was hoping to make. =C2=A0I read Rob Pike's comments at:
<= br>

and it really got me thinking. =C2=A0What a great idea = he talked about! =C2=A0I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.=

Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or = logic. =C2=A0The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critic= al mass of mind-share. =C2=A0Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has t= hat mind-share (in the technical arena). =C2=A0(Of course Windows has much = more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical an= d don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bull= ying of the market...) =C2=A0

I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. =C2=A0The = first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). =C2=A0It is very hard to c= ompete with Windows & Linux. =C2=A0The second was lack of support for a= huge need - a fully functional browser.=C2=A0

In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd a= ll agree that Plan-9 has no real future. =C2=A0On the other hand, I believe= that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of t= he future. =C2=A0I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas = to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linu= x kernel. =C2=A0I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would b= e compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right dir= ection. =C2=A0Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. =C2=A0Just= like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc.= , Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improv= ements to existing technology like Linux.

Just some thoughts.
=

Blake McBride





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