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Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:51:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <742D19E4-EB85-48D0-9894-F30E40F5CD13@pobox.com> <1B7C5BF9-844A-4488-82D5-63740AFE7E1B@westryn.net> In-Reply-To: <1B7C5BF9-844A-4488-82D5-63740AFE7E1B@westryn.net> From: Charles Forsyth Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 21:50:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] troll paper To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000009cc78f061628c7ad Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: e41d1a8e-fb69-11ee-9836-30fe068c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNTFmN2Y1YTg5MjdlMTI3MS1NYTYzYjFjMGYxNDk5MDgzMmRkZGVh?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGVmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Ma63b1c0f14990832dddeadef:1:Dt20sm0gy8yp232SyFxY3IkI1luc5M5TGfXQKvyYSXQ --0000000000009cc78f061628c7ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > And, if I hear about it being > =E2=80=9Cdeclarative=E2=80=9D as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (= and > growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend. You might find help in culang.org On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 at 20:49, Kim Shrier wrote: > > On Apr 12, 2024, at 4:56=E2=80=AFAM, David Arnold wr= ote: > > > >> The vetting process needs some work, lads. > > > > More heresy than trolling, perhaps? > > > > It was thought-provoking for me. I wished I was there for the bar > session afterwards. > > > > d >=20 > It didn=E2=80=99t read like a troll paper to me. I periodically go throu= gh > a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate > various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find > ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work > was done. >=20 > I do have an answer to the question, =E2=80=9CDo we really have to > have our own kernel?=E2=80=9D. >=20 > Yes. >=20 > Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which > you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect > of the software, including the kernel itself. Linux is not a good > substitute for Plan 9. >=20 > And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes > as a tool for deploying services. I am having to live through > Kubernetes hell in my day job. And, if I hear about it being > =E2=80=9Cdeclarative=E2=80=9D as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (= and > growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend. >=20 > I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on > which one builds their systems in order to see if something > needs to change or a completely different approach is > warranted. >=20 > I just come to different conclusions than the author of this > paper. >=20 > Kim > _ > C++ is an off-by-one error >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T51f7f5a8927e1271-Ma63b1= c0f14990832dddeadef Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000009cc78f061628c7ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 And, if I hear about it being“declarative” as a v= irtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.

You might find help in culang.org 

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 at 20:49, Kim= Shrier <kim@westryn.net> wrot= e:
> On Apr= 12, 2024, at 4:56 AM, David Arnold <davida@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
>
> More heresy than trolling, perhaps?
>
> It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the ba= r session afterwards.
>
> d

It didn’t read like a troll paper to me.  I periodically go thro= ugh
a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate
various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find
ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work
was done.

I do have an answer to the question, “Do we really have to
have our own kernel?”.

Yes.

Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which
you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect
of the software, including the kernel itself.  Linux is not a good
substitute for Plan 9.

And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes
as a tool for deploying services.  I am having to live through
Kubernetes hell in my day job.  And, if I hear about it being
“declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.

I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on
which one builds their systems in order to see if something
needs to change or a completely different approach is
warranted.

I just come to different conclusions than the author of this
paper.

Kim
_
C++ is an off-by-one error





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