From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13142255BA for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 09:55:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287721F824 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 03:55:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mM3a7329a3b7b10d8eefdd1453.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 262B09D90CA; Mon, 13 May 2024 03:55:32 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=jEWNBA8A header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=adventuresin9@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1715586932; bh=n/yz6+TvRf1YJQs5 NDZpDFjEdrCnVd9bCDv82L7amdY=; b=jHXlw5M7Q1VDk6Fc2sB+ZbC5pGK+TY+Y C3jcOdddW+6A7ljHfnbKWmC6FTrFtjwmN0mdjb+NMR4ArbQNmCAisDqetHtkNtQ9 NBByLcpe+StiEg/EamM1HasRZ5vV2t7xZYdCKqnNaOjpZf4Xl9KkntVpDZgm8WSh cGHYqyt8UA4= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1715586932; b=SXbb8dXW+vJykO2ENi8CO8Qhs5xMbIHFyUdk2KvVA+7nVPNAcW qdesbOlxkLe1FV3S6DiKNFvG2Tnaav7TSBCKqU+cRHUSnKDr3fzK4suCg15WpSJ1 R0+Te04HYsuMPQU32+TLNOe8Z0Z7s/kbxWoOACRMZ+90nBsBH+I4mytGo= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=jEWNBA8A header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=adventuresin9@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=jEWNBA8A header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.208.176 (mail-lj1-f176.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=adventuresin9@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=jwDwrpRc; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com policy.ptr=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject :to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; t=1715586931; x=1715673331; bh=4kRIDgZDw/f4JK+J+hELkDu6Om0Wkxpr 5/dTdWBFmc0=; b=NuIloSJgLKXaf6StshXJ2jE/cX7582WRtAbQ+/UPPBSkxgW7 lGuiXzSzoyZhOHpEkWIJKs0XuUN474Y1KyY0Bg6RQ7R+pRxOg/Avjpch0KHjmLjE 9Cndd98GuhHGczAlS91Lbee7TUtGGYxJmug+c9LN6N4xlMIrC5HVSCsEAhs= Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79C99D8C89 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 13 May 2024 03:55:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adventuresin9@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 1E8BA7BA792; Mon, 13 May 2024 03:55:21 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1715586921; b=i/E8qsKzwltIYQHN8HrVca2cdVD/g9L0esvQvIDtbgXNp0ucC9 8aDNs/fiZmvTOc7iAF4WiiNYHEr7g/kr/O5d627lcS9xv9C0KXZuGq1RYRXn/Yu5 ODSwjhl//43HXvbLeCCZIICLb8iCzPMAkMWnkv83rUCTWDZtMs5RcX5AHnxdpR/u nH39P6nDy62yFCzTqxd4ofrzeh0KcCu5qX2gIxxPek21Qb9BKPuKuTi6YIQS7vQA 3UsPKGcMqspi/8l1iak5CBa1MCyuxNf92xznaaDrJukolyN77OvQrv6WpE+hyRjB a5qfoRdHFGuBn4HSky/HaQ/yqN3Fwa3+RZQg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=arcseal; t=1715586921; bh=HBT5KvkLiOa9cdIAni2lo9fia4zsWvsp/r1 QB7uH8G8=; b=ZZs/pgaLacyIqxRfmJCHOKAbntiV7kFlq27wL9min3crCDNl1xo Jg6Jf5mY+W63AunY5u+//Bb5llx4+dSYvPjXsrjUevP4rkBnd5S5lnlRcMfNdLrx bBFz+XLjbR8OnX7pZy11+94+7vK5Lr2YXS48gCk7/wGjzzbbFno44HV3YnzEWM4p k6/S+SGk5QMuk4zKWEOD8NMrv8uJ20b6/kOSKY44MDLsFOLFscWuc+quCBEpAmBJ Mo95hoP/HmAj/VHVJkgcAZbaIar9/AIrXhyiTCGxOXbNSztXl5qtgf0a/1ZsUo6N 98L/6PA1vmmOeN7cbPnA1vwf2eMuZLoN2jg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=jEWNBA8A header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.208.176 (mail-lj1-f176.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=adventuresin9@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=jwDwrpRc; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com policy.ptr=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvdegfedguddvgecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdp uffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepgghfjg fhfffkuffvtgfgsehtqhertddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpegrughvvghnthhurhgvshcuihhn lecuoegrughvvghnthhurhgvshhinhelsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeuvedtleefleeiteeufeevieffieeuhfehhfegtdetjeehgfefgfeugeduteeg ieenucfkphepvddtledrkeehrddvtdekrddujeeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepvddtledrkeehrddvtdekrddujeeipdhhvghlohepmhgr ihhlqdhljhduqdhfudejiedrghhoohhglhgvrdgtohhmpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoegrug hvvghnthhurhgvshhinhelsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqedpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepuddp rhgtphhtthhopeeolehfrghnsheslehfrghnshdrnhgvtheq X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'adventuresin9@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx0.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="adventuresin9@gmail.com"; helo=mail-lj1-f176.google.com; client-ip=209.85.208.176 Received: from mail-lj1-f176.google.com (mail-lj1-f176.google.com [209.85.208.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 13 May 2024 03:55:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adventuresin9@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-f176.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2e6792ea67dso20959311fa.3 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 13 May 2024 00:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715586919; x=1716191719; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=HBT5KvkLiOa9cdIAni2lo9fia4zsWvsp/r1QB7uH8G8=; b=jwDwrpRcod8BfcWUZoEISxCijHJVF0/PahMsGCQLCyTnWm0eQT2DdIwEDHcWhy223u nsyg8mzIrL/0AQTb8NYOJ6TJBmEHhSOPwJwUKXNvIJ2I1D4aGRDNFtTr9wLqqMt9oTbp Cgu7CoveAycI1jF7HwIycodgo05L1d8UZqpIOWLXdpRTKP9pxFJALjJbKRG1szBqNvUB rnAzi+XW4/D+5vgQgAtyDyMQJAaXSRkRO7THaC/LZNo2Mh1opArciDrZq1dYSz6FemQ+ v16JbxR142kq6PeFS54qk+M1tGe3iDmq8BKqzrhwKRYbYQZ1qERhRQXl+QnPmgxI1rTX CMWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzHP4H4xqLLBOoxlzjBg+D+GcUv8GNAMOgIKveGDC1MfMG4Agu0 I+5QgHDYRh58Vw0/6ca3Ni6Wwrs+WDvNtYGjppYfIDCDqPvYt6sbM/aYw4GtRzWM76zssTjOkEJ kqkGwZewSHmi25H21A1l8a7DfVjP3uA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHKwd0TE06hROqtq/MejlJgbfJ0kSwKquNZrE+M1LKykF8z8ioihlkw6xkXxGbn7Lw7cVJXiGo/tyMk+Q6KoZ0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9b48:0:b0:2e5:602b:9707 with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2e5602b9737mr50467291fa.0.1715586919334; Mon, 13 May 2024 00:55:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: adventures in9 Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 00:55:07 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 28a0f56e-10fe-11ef-8a5a-13c1078c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NM2E3MzI5YTNiN2IxMGQ4ZWVmZGQx?= =?UTF-8?B?NDUzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M3a7329a3b7b10d8eefdd1453:1:4eTTFnOSzAzb2prbsrLJYj8PCT-Hy6wsOnsFFCAcUOk On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 7:17=E2=80=AFPM clinton = wrote: > > If I were completely naive to actually running plan9 but with many clues= about other operating systems and hardware, would it be better for me to i= nstall 9legacy on some mildly obsolescent but still quite serviceable and r= eliable hardware, or start with 9front on something more modern? Is the lea= rning curve the same for both varieties? Would it help getting to know 9fro= nt if I spent a bit of time with her older sister 9legacy? Can 9legacy be c= onsidered the gateway drug to 9front? > I await the scorching flames for my great impudence of interjecting into = a vociferous discussion with such a pragmatic tangent! Having done a variety of Plan9 and 9Front installs on various pieces of hardware and VMs... I would, and do, tell most people to just go with 9Front. It does all the same core Plan9 concepts. It all speaks 9P and has per-process namespaces. A few of the commands have changed, like rimport and rcpu , instead of import and cpu. It has a few new things, like auto mounting usb thumb drives in /shr. When you work your way up to managing a grid, there are a lot of changes, but nothing that really gets away from the core concepts. I run 9Front on plenty of old hardware. I boot it on mips based router boards with only 64MB of ram. I run it on very new but rather meager and cheap hardware and have done videos demonstrating it. I've ran it on Virtualbox in Windows on a 10 year old laptop, and bhyve on a FreeBSD file server with pci passthrough to the nic, both cases running on a single core. 9Front does all the stuff classic Plan9 does as far as teaching one the basic concepts of Plan9. It also has the advantage of more hardware drivers and an active community adding more drivers and documentation. I see a lot of arguments about 9Legacy having a more pristine license. But nothing about it doing anything better than 9Front. Or any arguments that 9Front does anything in a very non-Plan9 way. In my case, 9Legacy was the gateway drug. I started with Miller's Pi images on 3 rpi 3B's, so I could run a file server, cpu server, and terminal. But the difficulty moving from that to some retired Dell office computers is why I jumped over to 9Front. The 9Front usb install image just works better on a wider variety of old and new hardware. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M3a732= 9a3b7b10d8eefdd1453 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription