From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A6E2472B for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 02:53:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EBA22F3B for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM35c2db73c894d1eda15d482c.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id A1E92A2558F; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:58 -0500 (EST) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=W1kvaFRL header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from :mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to :list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1706147638; bh=rZOugetLtUNhaaff UqcJaXujGoV+V9mN1i6F+6b+wlA=; b=XyPDhxWtkelCDZwtNsXLnPVkUmC0kW6s a5/6PxYOshW0S84pxWXqCuXwlaUdQRRbdM/mx9O6pF0zUrUZQ20MqXmL1xeU7zKj myBIiAFk0/n7bzTbAd5PoqEkcehmtG5fP23Yxy9O00Jv2B67uF58yyn+93D8oxXv F7CDI8cIQyk= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1706147638; b=ajXwm6lYtYBC5f0R5Yz18H+vEotji/PGPpPvJuIXnTaKVSQDpt lr3HpdjMYRKCYZROKwkatqDgurXblRM+pIqBANI4RJoxSESWF0+whFzJc3jatA/3 syjhdExYSF/6JW+kF41iqpyDt6Z3Z1FPsgLT8X4jMqLpRvTj9KDQfNbBU= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=W1kvaFRL header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=W1kvaFRL header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.166.175 (mail-il1-f175.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=QMiWpf4t; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com policy.ptr=mail-il1-f175.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; t=1706147638; x=1706234038; bh=rZOugetLtUNhaaffUqcJaXujGoV+V9mN 1i6F+6b+wlA=; b=mj2jvsAORpllboNf5Y8Y6kFOLGgCa4HiO/o9+w1Tq8LaEBgz F7dxqt0BoP0Q8M7+GSCVHIJwRXDhnEQX+/ezSsZ9739PJmnHQh9zGcoU0jhHw9aC 5XMRNIIY7foYsiIWd2kAYvrHYlWFyTW8qk9ExfTONdYbdP8CFS6vGwkfvn8= Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFE9A25152 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from don.bailey@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id DEFD6D8962B; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:44 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1706147624; b=IqsXdhbHblHpGqmyAQucSusmFJCdMWoqvZZlR7cmM2j/TIsVvC uvHo5AHUsCWNgRjobCSmWKcgsPPU3sTsaCdYT+wnG8diZqozEa8jP+9+Zeq2UY5l nyPRuecWmqIBlrDyRAKevHz8QcIais3Gz3/zKk6QWkyyWMrLjR3HVx/T4ul2Wugd pPd4dSEqDrmzEoFQUe5z37aKACFfn4+NHsPm8Y7ggORT2YTrDduKtr4OR5jeJ1b2 SWx5yU1KFh1LAroE+muSpOYErX8jsQz2Oy4yDzY6vPEOYdtnu04AkMEO8iFqBGx/ j5Z5gGGmUGy2fk4PhyMdJWwmsL/l9wT2hMhw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from :mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; s=arcseal; t=1706147624; bh=/RTZ/Bioj/lMtsE9bWkrrQ8ZQwDJsFTwN/m ZLg9oopI=; b=yOjUQAkjKTga0jzwp00FGlmlU93D2XNhvphgxBo28axa2/IWjoR No4SdQewg4orf0d5JNRomErDa49+m+Fa3/JWhalf6FLaWmVtKcnBOEtCmEGsijD6 OWHbwxaIlRPWGNBhWBTD0Y/M35HOON39CBiya/QaGGBfYvNo76yC8J0JzlFosDUa rIGdDKg4kSzSxCnytIjRme87xk/N5WGHwuqlUDAT9tSKVyknrOJPAyJfslxtQrpI alh7K/1FQ8OXv1UTcclJFLaQ4GS+MAm5+AlBinXuLZQ/VaKLc+Y8f7Y2RRJyLjGk f4kdPL1J+U/tI06Q0ejtPZqx+FvchrCyizw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=W1kvaFRL header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.166.175 (mail-il1-f175.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=don.bailey@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=QMiWpf4t; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com policy.ptr=mail-il1-f175.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdelvddgfeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtgffhgg fufffkfhgjvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfffhonhcutedruceurghilhgv hidfuceoughonhdrsggrihhlvgihsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrh hnpeeguddvveeiieeufeegueetudegudefgfdvvdeggeeukedvtdeuieehgeelvdetffen ucffohhmrghinhepthhophhitggsohigrdgtohhmnecukfhppedvtdelrdekhedrudeiie drudejhedpleekrdeljedruddrudelheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgr rhgrmhepihhnvghtpedvtdelrdekhedrudeiiedrudejhedphhgvlhhopehmrghilhdqih hluddqfhdujeehrdhgohhoghhlvgdrtghomhdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeeoughonhdrsggr ihhlvgihsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqe X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'don.bailey@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="don.bailey@gmail.com"; helo=mail-il1-f175.google.com; client-ip=209.85.166.175 Received: from mail-il1-f175.google.com (mail-il1-f175.google.com [209.85.166.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from don.bailey@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f175.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-362a04c4c99so1575295ab.3 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:53:44 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1706147623; x=1706752423; h=to:in-reply-to:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version:from :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/RTZ/Bioj/lMtsE9bWkrrQ8ZQwDJsFTwN/mZLg9oopI=; b=QMiWpf4tFFD0uyplOAlSiKAXK9zeZVC4tgJD6ed3H/jKvxw41ChooS0ApzWbHLcCpZ bzPFZ/MuvxKC75Oodb2V5JR7TKjSW/SpXG28MZ2H9j56indHhAXf5A+WNz8RWqR+Ujfh 0kHLwhZUU2hgdSqlZu9GOW1/DKOHSheDT6Lx5WgmUs3t3CUxPDEQFUcQPPrnnyI2rXPQ 1YrXBs9e4AWtBoy9rDKZFfvwZILT+wb27iYlh5cdVg+imX5hDLmjF9hvDF25fyttjV+0 hqInnX3E2cljUkFwMbZovXUljixUsk9tw3yogavJMGd31r+MkUgVr7Rt008IE7WeoF6H ncsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwTN7umMawSzuE/Swt8vDOifmOwZBAFzTBiPc5PP/JBPD2pxht8 elpQf/9vRb1qbNceNaXeH7PbicdNTmGcBlOcApbude/xgurJnr98dUDlGbaY X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEkedFlOZk3KhSvdV4TQlJulcXTKz6hGkBmeNQfZ3XZMmSGhiO9hv1kuBfBtaFIVfpTqfNA5g== X-Received: by 2002:a92:c708:0:b0:362:805b:8145 with SMTP id a8-20020a92c708000000b00362805b8145mr408451ilp.22.1706147622890; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([98.97.1.195]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bt16-20020a056e02249000b003619fa122a2sm2945901ilb.7.2024.01.24.17.53.42 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:53:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Don A. Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:30 -0500 Message-Id: References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 95529396-bb24-11ee-8fcf-de8f211fcee8 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMzVjMmRiNzNjODk0ZDFlZGExNWQ0?= =?UTF-8?B?ODJjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M35c2db73c894d1eda15d482c:1:QmAXCfclS0JH-VXBPO1dgnVgYc6AyNlbsfF8RU0FC6o Tbf I took it as genuine.=20 One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases sh= ould not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the netwo= rk. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended.=20 I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2=80=99= d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only= receive patches through them.=20 D > On Jan 24, 2024, at 8:50=E2=80=AFPM, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFTo clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the = idea of envisioning a new release. >=20 > --vic >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 10:01, Don Bailey wrote: >> Breh. No. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFPM wrote: >>>=20 >>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly >>> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of >>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is >>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Pl= an 9 >>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enh= ance >>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Pla= n 9 >>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for >>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared >>> passions and expertise. >>>=20 >>> The Need for Modernization >>>=20 >>> Technological Evolution: >>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's la= st >>> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, i= t's >>> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest >>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This >>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable too= l in >>> our modern tech toolkit. >>>=20 >>> Security Enhancements: >>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a >>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to inclu= de >>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique >>> work we do from emerging cyber risks. >>>=20 >>> Hardware Compatibility: >>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for u= s. >>> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving >>> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, >>> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >>>=20 >>> Fostering Innovation >>>=20 >>> Research and Education: >>> Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed comput= ing has >>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release >>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for >>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we c= an >>> achieve with Plan 9. >>>=20 >>> Community Engagement: >>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an >>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a >>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 >>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new >>> collaborations and innovations. >>>=20 >>> Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: >>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's >>> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, >>> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabi= lity >>> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >>>=20 >>> Practical Considerations >>>=20 >>> Resource Allocation: >>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringi= ng >>> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective >>> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring n= ew >>> partnerships or funding avenues. >>>=20 >>> Backward Compatibility: >>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work = and >>> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while >>> charting a course for its future. >>>=20 >>> Documentation and Support: >>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this = new >>> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that wi= ll >>> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool= we >>> can all be proud of. >>>=20 >>> Conclusion >>>=20 >>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; i= t=E2=80=99s >>> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the >>> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards >>> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in t= he >>> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of >>> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the >>> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legac= y of >>> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, >>> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. >>> --vic >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: >>>> On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >>>>> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think >>> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system.= But >>> it is more work than a recompile. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Michael >>>>=20 >>>> It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and >>>> linker working on >>>> 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in >>>> /sys/src/cmd/cc. >>>> So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug >>>> the compiler, the linker, and >>>> the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when >>>> I see it. >>>>=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M35c2d= b73c894d1eda15d482c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription