From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13391 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2022 10:24:54 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2022 10:24:54 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E32832D97 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 05:24:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMfc760e8816936706c934d544.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 8C9191362916; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 05:24:53 -0500 (EST) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=none (no signatures found); dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=tesio.it; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=giacomo@tesio.it smtp.helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references :message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1643279093; bh=swQE2QbA9JwxVsxG 8YizC9Wb1pu/PrUJ84Kcyhj/sts=; b=d4XbXa5zs/DcuEqaz9tYVmDLAC8necjI r2mrq+1thbRfvs39vRzh157ItoMunAn0WiQ6kK3l6T6pMd8s3P7AmCj2Ed7GMP+u jFnQd7LTLmUcOQjTblS0lgkPu4zaFQmXwxfITCHp7YjDJKNuIoPq9Z7i9Q21/36O tQKJ0kjvYfU= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1643279093; b=QnppKX7rqVm7bEDSQEcxSON4jvyqf/fFHAJ3PHB7PAZmT73z0M XeQcp4mHe2uDxZlPWq52Cz5HoXhJq1ji9Z0Gq0CNibD1YnEQbEpPEoP3P3X10CK+ 85MXB1oLee+Yvm7J77MipjcLzF23Rt0p8V7I+bM49EaMEmRqDZ8lVF2FE= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=none (no signatures found); dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=tesio.it; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=giacomo@tesio.it smtp.helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: garm.ovh; auth=pass (GARM-100R00390f61011-8eb7-40ce-8394-8babc858834b, 8B6BCCEFE9D7980E23EB73A49EEBBE2547FEBDF1) smtp.auth=giacomo@tesio.it X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=none (no signatures found); dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=tesio.it; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=188.165.52.203 (3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=giacomo@tesio.it smtp.helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net policy.ptr=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=tesio.it policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mx1.mail.ovh.net,mx3.mail.ovh.net,mx2.mail.ovh.net,mx0.mail.ovh.net); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=tesio.it policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mx1.mail.ovh.net,mx3.mail.ovh.net,mx2.mail.ovh.net,mx0.mail.ovh.net); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=-100 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=date:from :to:subject:in-reply-to:references:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=swQE2QbA9JwxVsxG8YizC9Wb1pu/PrUJ84Kcyhj/sts=; b=a21gimWBaARE 0kMFN71E7b19v32NF3ECU0/entVQe87yYeg3jevJKuxslr5Y3Fr/5/2ktvm15F+E lqLa102TuU6e4Kaocm+vkxJBuJw7/BJ4liDN630U+VvOogKKGRpQtnFBPKdtMS3b Ak2PfT4eYL5aYBJ66Gq+rbg1LkD5FV8= Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7E7F8A0DB for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 05:24:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from giacomo@tesio.it) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 05FC095B236; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 05:24:43 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1643279083; b=P6cQ7t82XFHKiY0+gxQJTlmEl6MP95Vei7WEGpQyuE2+mVsrBM n/dTp3499tRxO8WtQQ6K0s4lsgv2uOlH2L8ThRX0gW4biTzdxCm1RIbkPwV1TN0k NIrdzgYm7P2nVpBnGYeEHtguh7VE5bBB3Ig7ruy6ei8uS706UjKPfApibe5lJSFh h1ZY1T7hVyToi9pVxab6yp1fbfDycerQTuUGyp1aAT18eK3HodYx+3/9pfSCrQoZ AAUzsyoPmQQc3EMHzQKhObrj0S24NVZn7sMdTSQcZZytBpoEi+7T3qKOe24HUJZB CeTv8M1quGuIsIFeEFBB3s8IdwziTdjFvYgw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references :message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=arcseal; t=1643279083; bh=iFJMFH5GyGcie8Pd8YIiW9+9YxUUG6oW2yF nVwp8Mxk=; b=nCoHbniyiVyxTqIeHFI2jF/TKlesrQ5LIDmBb6S1TDG1RyM0LR7 Cml4gXuuaKRktnPfkuSQ+w7M22D64GZzNrtBvzhU+9MazgxHSWZ8M5h28DaYODUv E9QKgxdF1Fmo0og1u3q7J/oGGL3PyBxd5fC9JWIa86lj+KPh4YwpQbLftBZz1DZA XJREJJQ2Dqa8eBbEIBHVhIiZ8w0Ziqa4BiQHZfLIhdGCfomUNsXmOKIoZulfxxa6 0z6hp6Ml4iuPBu474NOhuW0/W7fIz3E7myBgW2FuclTEU3NRkgzupjd8cSc/3QA8 8JW0nH3nUjcZnqFxQI4FUHb7hwVbc9TUeiw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=none (no signatures found); dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=tesio.it; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=188.165.52.203 (3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=giacomo@tesio.it smtp.helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net policy.ptr=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=tesio.it policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mx1.mail.ovh.net,mx3.mail.ovh.net,mx2.mail.ovh.net,mx0.mail.ovh.net); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=tesio.it policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mx1.mail.ovh.net,mx3.mail.ovh.net,mx2.mail.ovh.net,mx0.mail.ovh.net); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=-100 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrvdehgdduvdeiucdltddurdegudelrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvffujghfkfgg tgfgsehtqhhmtddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpefiihgrtghomhhoucfvvghsihhouceoghhirg gtohhmohesthgvshhiohdrihhtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeffkedvgeegjeelveej vdehhffgieetteetteehheelvdfhjeegffdvvddutddukeenucffohhmrghinhepthgvsh hiohdrihhtnecukfhppedukeekrdduieehrdehvddrvddtfedpleegrdefhedrieegrddu tddupddtrddtrddtrddtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinh gvthepudekkedrudeihedrhedvrddvtdefpdhhvghlohepfedrmhhoheejiedrmhgrihhl qdhouhhtrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoehgihgrtghomhhosehtvghsih hordhitheqpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdphhgvlhhopehplhgrhigvrheileelrdhh rgdrohhvhhdrnhgvthdpihhnvghtpedtrddtrddtrddtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepghhirg gtohhmohesthgvshhiohdrihhtpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhrtghpthhtoheplehf rghnsheslehfrghnshdrnhgvth X-ME-VSScore: -100 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (tesio.it: Sender is authorized to use 'giacomo@tesio.it' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:mx.ovh.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="giacomo@tesio.it"; helo=3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net; client-ip=188.165.52.203 Received: from 3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net (3.mo576.mail-out.ovh.net [188.165.52.203]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 05:24:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from giacomo@tesio.it) Received: from player699.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.109.143.208]) by mo576.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336AF23A4B for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:24:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from tesio.it (94-35-64-101.client-mvno.tiscali.it [94.35.64.101]) (Authenticated sender: giacomo@tesio.it) by player699.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B110626BCC099; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:24:37 +0000 (UTC) X-OVh-ClientIp:94.35.64.101 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:24:36 +0000 From: Giacomo Tesio To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>, raingloom , mycroftiv 9gridchan Subject: Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation In-Reply-To: <20220127053516.4a9022f6@riseup.net> References: <20220127053516.4a9022f6@riseup.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 8279867916573017866 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrfeefgdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucehtddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvufgjfhfkgggtgfesthhqmhdttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepifhirggtohhmohcuvfgvshhiohcuoehgihgrtghomhhosehtvghsihhordhitheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffekvdeggeejleevjedvhefhgfeiteetteetheehledvhfejgeffvddvuddtudeknecuffhomhgrihhnpehtvghsihhordhithenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpleegrdefhedrieegrddutddunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdphhgvlhhopehplhgrhigvrheileelrdhhrgdrohhvhhdrnhgvthdpihhnvghtpedtrddtrddtrddtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepghhirggtohhmohesthgvshhiohdrihhtpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhrtghpthhtoheplehfrghnsheslehfrghnshdrnhgvth Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5a7d5adc-7f5b-11ec-bc5b-a9b58a6403f1 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNjI3YTI5YTdiYWJhZjI5ZS1NZmM3NjBlODgxNjkzNjcwNmM5MzRk?= =?UTF-8?B?NTQ0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mfc760e8816936706c934d544:1:0aEcYDHTCDzm1-6voVABXbDT1AVcmv7FSjPr4NMw8tI Hi raingloom, mycroftiv and 9fans, As you might know I'm pretty heretic in Plan 9 (as much that my for is call= ed Jehanne)=20 and I'm also very sympathetic with SJW victims, mostly because SJW basically try to impose worldwide a US-workplace ethos that is compatible with US-sty= led=20 corporate management. More often than not, they are in good faith. But ultimately they become tools of US colonialism, spreading their cultura= l hegemony. The trick is basically: convince everybody that they have your problems=20 (eg, systemic racism, lgtqmi+ phobics, gender bias and so on) so that they will accept your corporate-friendly solutions (eg CoCs...) In Europe being inclusive doesn't mean to be hypocrital, and that's why I'd= really like=20 to know what "sin" Nemo did to cause all this debate. More often than not, SJW raise their swords after fictional issues that amo= unt to nothing and could be basically settled with a honest conversation between openminde= d adults. More often than not, what a SJW consider outragous and evil, is said in a completely different cultural context and environment, so much that th= ey simply can't (or don't care to) interpret it as intended and understood in = that context. Finally, more often than not, SJW inclusiveness stops before weird people, (like hackers often are) that do NOT belong to the demographic groups that populate US's remorse, like blacks, women and so on. Not to mention that often they are plain blind with the harm their corporat= ions=20 cause worldwide (think of the Facebook's SJW that obtained the removal of R= MS=20 from GCC Steering Committee). On January 27, 2022 4:35:16 AM UTC, raingloom wrote: >=20 > Side note: technology is political. Deal with it. Software that helps > no one is of no use and who you choose to help with software and count > as a stakeholder (which includes but is not limited to users) is an > inherently political question. Ignoring that just means that you prefer > the status quo. I totally agree with this. [1] Since neolithic, technology is a prosecution of politics by other means. I agree so much that all my free software projects include a POLITICS.txt t= hat=20 explicitly declares the political goals they have. However, thanks God, not all politics is based on cancel culture, yet. Hackers do not cancel, we create. If you feel the need to cancel Nemo's great influence over Plan 9, I'm not = interested. If you want to update his great books, eg to describe 9front, I'd really li= ke to help. But I'd love to work WITH Nemo, not against him. I might disagree with Nemo's view on general politics (I really do not know= his takes=20 on anything) but I think I might well work with him on a well defined polit= ical goal (say "document 9front internals so that anybody can more easily hack it"). Or maybe he doesn't like 9front and prefer to stick to plan9foundation's co= de, in=20 which case I would't partecipate because I can't trust several of the found= ers [2]. Sure, as you say, deciding who your project serves and how is a political c= hoice. But it has nothing to do with who you cancel. Technology is Politics. But Politics, to me, is to build bridges, not walls. Cancelling Nemo is not a political achievement. Building on the great work he donated to this community, is. My 2 cents. Giacomo [1] http://www.tesio.it/2019/06/03/what-is-informatics.html [2] http://www.tesio.it/2018/02/14/what-i-wish-i-knew-before-contributing-t= o-open-source.html ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T627a29a7babaf29e-Mfc760= e8816936706c934d544 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription