From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Steve Simon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1D356CE1-C742-43B3-AA65-21AAD17F56CF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 08:34:42 +0100 References: <9A3455DB-8B65-46B3-9F57-6E98639392CB@me.com> In-Reply-To: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Musings on Interfaces Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9c0a57de-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --Apple-Mail-1D356CE1-C742-43B3-AA65-21AAD17F56CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi, Sam has been my only editor since the X11 port was released in about 1992. I have not really tried acme, I never gave it a real chance but I used to us= e it to edit the plan 9 wiki so I have a little skill. I agree scroll select is the one feature I would add - I have a feeling the 9= front guys may have already done this... I think it is just habit but I find Sam so comfortable I just resist change.= -Steve > On 1 Sep 2016, at 23:56, Winston Kodogo wrote: >=20 > Thanks to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love many things abou= t Sam, but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. The structural regular= expression stuff is a work of genius, but I still find, such are my limitat= ions, that the user interface is just too clunky and retro. >=20 >> On 2 September 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile wrote= : >> I think I=E2=80=99ve been a member of 9fans for its entire history. The e= arliest saved 9fans email in my /mail/box/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the= time I have not said much. Given that the list isn=E2=80=99t very busy thes= e days, and that I=E2=80=99m doing a lot of thinking about Plan 9, I thought= I would post some of my seemingly random musings. >>=20 >> Today I=E2=80=99m thinking about Plan 9=E2=80=99s interfaces. >>=20 >> The reason for thinking about those is that I=E2=80=99ve just switch back= to sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change i= s as good as a rest. I=E2=80=99ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six days a= week lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme. I=E2= =80=99ve been using it for many years and it is a great tool. >>=20 >> The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office in= Redwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the ef= fect that =E2=80=9Cyou are one of those.=E2=80=9D He uses sam as do many of t= he folks who created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I had= did a poll years ago but can=E2=80=99t seem to find the results. As did I f= or many years, even after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a version o= f it working on my Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the samt= erm and all. It was the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure at Be= ll Labs in 1990. Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Winterbotto= m and his Alef language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like rio(1) w= ithout the bumpers one can use to move and resize the window. >>=20 >> I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did h= ave modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not to do= acme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that part o= f the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a shell vari= able that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconscious chording s= topped. >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other way= around. Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And= that difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use ac= me, I mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It bec= omes a kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like se= d and awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using ac= me. I had a similar thing happen when in the 1980=E2=80=99s I dropped vi for= ed. I used ed until the 1990=E2=80=99s when I was able to switch to sam ful= l time. >>=20 >> But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it a= nd acme. >>=20 >> In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window r= ather than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command langu= age in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feels differe= nt. There is something to be said for the convenience of the command windows= in sam. >>=20 >> If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the time= it took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while workin= g. Our tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took about a week= to switch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a function of how m= uch I used sam in the past. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m very grateful to still be using these tools. It=E2=80=99s a v= ery personal thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and t= he old shell, and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, b= oth acme and sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded th= em and followed them. >>=20 >> Brantley Coile >=20 --Apple-Mail-1D356CE1-C742-43B3-AA65-21AAD17F56CF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hi,

Sam has been my only editor since the X11 port was released in about 1992.=
I have not really tried acme, I never gave it a real chance but I= used to use it
to edit the plan 9 wiki so I have a little skill.<= /div>

I agree scroll select is the one feature I would ad= d - I have a feeling the 9front guys may have already done this...

I think it is just habit but I find Sam so comfortable I jus= t resist change.

-Steve

On 1 Sep 2016, at 23:56, Winston Kodogo <kodogo@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks to Brantley for his thoughtful musings. Me, I love m= any things about Sam, but I just can't use it as my everyday editor. The str= uctural regular expression stuff is a work of genius, but I still find, such= are my limitations, that the user interface is just too clunky and retro.

On 2 Septe= mber 2016 at 02:42, Brantley Coile <brantleycoile@me.com> w= rote:
I think I=E2=80=99ve been a member of= 9fans for its entire history. The earliest saved 9fans email in my /mail/bo= x/bwc is dated 2001. But most of the time I have not said much. Given that t= he list isn=E2=80=99t very busy these days, and that I=E2=80=99m doing a lot= of thinking about Plan 9, I thought I would post some of my seemingly rando= m musings.

Today I=E2=80=99m thinking about Plan 9=E2=80=99s interfaces.

The reason for thinking about those is that I=E2=80=99ve just switch back to= sam(1) from acme(1). No real reason, except for the old adage, a change is a= s good as a rest. I=E2=80=99ve been working 10 to 12 hour days, six days a w= eek lately. I just wanted to change things a bit. Nothing against acme. I=E2= =80=99ve been using it for many years and it is a great tool.

The one time that Ken Thompson visited my office, when I had an office in Re= dwood City, he noticed that I was using acme and made a comment to the effec= t that =E2=80=9Cyou are one of those.=E2=80=9D He uses sam as do many of the= folks who created Plan 9. Many of the original folks also use acme. I had d= id a poll years ago but can=E2=80=99t seem to find the results. As did I for= many years, even after acme make its appearance. I had gotten a version of i= t working on my Unix using an Teletype 630 terminal, downloading the samterm= and all. It was the main Plan 9 editor during my very brief tenure at Bell L= abs in 1990. Acme came after I left with the arrival of Phil Winterbottom an= d his Alef language. The window manager was 8 1/2, which is like rio(1) with= out the bumpers one can use to move and resize the window.

I must say that it is refreshing to be back with the older editor. I did hav= e modify rio to look for an environmental variable that tells it not to do a= cme chording. I kept trying to use chording in sam and realized that part of= the problem was that I could still use it in rio. So, I added a shell varia= ble that turned that feature of rio off. After that subconscious chording st= opped.

I don=E2=80=99t think that sam is better than acme, or even the other way ar= ound. Both do a good job of getting the job done. They are different. And th= at difference has an affect on the way one used the system. When I use acme,= I mostly stay in acme, using the win program for my shell access. It become= s a kind of integrated environment. With sam, I seem to use tools like sed a= nd awk in the rio windows, like sed and awk more than when I was using acme.= I had a similar thing happen when in the 1980=E2=80=99s I dropped vi for ed= . I used ed until the 1990=E2=80=99s when I was able to switch to sam full t= ime.

But my use of edit commands in sam is the biggest difference between it and a= cme.

In sam, I think more about how to modify things using the command window rat= her than moving the mouse around and clicking on things. The command languag= e in acme using the Edit command is the same, but somehow it feels different= . There is something to be said for the convenience of the command windows i= n sam.

If I thought of the change as an experiment, one result would be the time it= took me to not have to think about which editor I was using while working. O= ur tools should be, for the most part, transparent. It took about a week to s= witch back to sam from acme. That time is certainly a function of how much I= used sam in the past.

I=E2=80=99m very grateful to still be using these tools. It=E2=80=99s a very= personal thing but for someone who first used 6th Edition Unix, ed and the o= ld shell, and used all the versions of Unix that followed, these tools, both= acme and sam, rio and 8 1/2, are an improvement to all that proceeded them a= nd followed them.

  Brantley Coile



= --Apple-Mail-1D356CE1-C742-43B3-AA65-21AAD17F56CF--