From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-Id: From: Daniel Lyons To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:49:00 -0600 References: Subject: Re: [9fans] Thrift RPC Topicbox-Message-UUID: 451a1396-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Aug 12, 2009, at 9:56 PM, erik quanstrom wrote: > if we're going back there, just take me out back and shoot me now. > i want to remember some progress in computer science. The principal joy I derive from using Plan 9 (and I am quite new) is =20 that it is so well architected. By day I am a web developer (when I'm =20= employed) and I am just thoroughly sickened by the industry. It seems =20= to me that at some point, the cool guys that beat me up in middle =20 school somehow insinuated their way into technology and have hijacked =20= everything. Currently they seem to be proceeding to reinvent the same =20= things over and over again, on top of their own reinventions, for no =20 particular gain except to make new jargon and get their name on the =20 latest version. It's hard to even maintain a portfolio of work one's =20 done when the lifespan of a website is dwindling to one year or six =20 months. And that certainly reduces the incentive to give it everything =20= you've got and make something really good. I was curious about ICE, because it seemed like they actually took =20 CORBA and said, what would this look like if it were implemented by =20 engineers rather than a committee? But I don't think the problem =20 facing the world is "how do I integrate all these languages, possibly =20= over the network?" but rather "how do I minimize all of this fucking =20 complexity and still get things done?" XML-RPC and SOAP are answers to =20= stupid questions, which is why we have REST, but the joke is that none =20= of the technologies that it relies on are even implemented enough by =20 their own specifications such that it can really be used. It strikes =20 me as ludicrous that you can go make a new Rails app and have to write =20= by hand (or find someone's plugin) to create a login system for you, =20 which won't even happen on the HTTP level (which supports it), or the =20= RDBMS level (which also supports it), or the OS level (which again =20 supports it.) How many times do we have to write username/password =20 logins before we're done and we can fucking can move on? It's not like =20= anything is really different at any of these levels, just the way the =20= bytes get handed around. Then you have to be sure to use a database =20 abstraction layer, because everyone seems to have forgotten that the =20 database *is* an abstraction layer=97this fact got lost in the shuffle =20= as it became too complex for anyone to really understand completely. =20 Yet nobody seems to be worried that the same thing might happen to =20 their little project as they pile code upon code and it slowly swells =20= up just like everything that came before or that it depends on. Before =20= long, they need an abstraction layer for their abstraction layer! Then =20= the schmucks come along and complain about performance and demand to =20 be taught every dirty trick to take their barely useful code and =20 remove all the clarity from it in the name of a performance. Software =20= is cancer. I don't know how long you've been a programmer, Erik, but I'm sure =20 it's far longer than I. =46rom my perspective, no, there is no progress =20= in computer science, we're spending all our time trying to climb out =20 of the same muddy hole we've been in since Dijkstra was a newlywed and =20= Knuth was writing for MAD Magazine. CS has such advanced amnesia that =20= it can't remember what prompted the last question it was asked and so =20= it just repeats the question to itself over and over, never really =20 aware that it isn't an answer. We dig and dig but the problem only =20 gets worse because digging doesn't get you out of a muddy hole. The things that keep me going are the pleasure I get from knowing a =20 lot of obscure stuff, talking to intelligent, knowledgeable people =20 such as comprise this mailing list, and (oddly) writing SQL. I =20 wouldn't say I have much hope for the industry in general unless =20 there's some sort of major restructuring. I try not to make that my =20 problem and instead share the things I know about with people I think =20= might benefit. So consider this the opposite of being flamed. I feel =20 exactly the same way you do. I hope that in some time I will be doing =20= as much for the good as you and others on this list that carry the =20 Plan 9 torch and endure my stupid questions (and now my rants.) =97 Daniel Lyons