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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x125sm7229414qkd.8.2021.08.22.12.04.01 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:04:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_48EA5E36-57D8-49C4-B65F-88A7828528C5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] Drawterm GPU (was: Software philosophy) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:04:00 -0700 References: <92764e35-f5cf-460a-91df-050ba471e6dd@sirjofri.de> <9352EE7C-AE94-4C1C-8738-5A1DA8ECE5A7@iitbombay.org> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: bcb43592-037b-11ec-85cf-ab6c1c996c98 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQyOWJmYzIyM2RjNGZiZS1NNjlkZmQ1MmM2YjZkODU3MjdiMDZk?= =?UTF-8?B?OWRjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M69dfd52c6b6d85727b06d9dc:1:wj636ifd-JMa94R4gN0wky7jG1nRv6dRA_gX1GS-htc --Apple-Mail=_48EA5E36-57D8-49C4-B65F-88A7828528C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks. Looks like Sutherland's "Wheel of Reincarnation " has not only stopped but exploded :-) Or stopped being applicable. -- Bakul > On Aug 22, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Paul Lalonde wrot= e: >=20 > It got complicated because there's no stable interface or ISA. The hardw= are evolved from fixed-function to programmable in a commercial environment= where the only meaningful measure was raw performance per dollar at many p= rice points. Every year the hardware spins and becomes more performant, us= ually faster than Moore's law. With 3D APIs hiding the hardware details th= ere is no pressure to make the hardware interface uniform, pretty, or neat.= And with the need for performance there are dozens of fixed function unit= s that effectively need their own sub-drivers while coordinating at high pe= rformance with the other units.=20 > The system diagrams for GPUs look complex, but they are radical simplific= ations of what's really on the inside. >=20 > Intel really pioneered the open driver stacks, but performance generally = wasn't there. That might be changing now, but I don't know if their recent= ly announced discrete product line will be driver-compatible. >=20 > Paul >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 8:48 AM Bakul Shah > wrote: > The FreeBSD amdgpu.ko is over 3Mbytes of compiled code. Not counting the = "firmware" that gets loaded on the GPU board. drm/amd/amdgpu has 200K+ line= s of source code. drm/amd over 2M lines of code. Intel's i915 seems to be a= bout 1/10th the amd size. AIUI, this is linux GPU driver code, more or less= unchanged (FreeBSD has shim code to use it). How did the interface to an S= IMD processor get so complicated? >=20 >> On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Paul Lalonde > wrote: >>=20 >> I'd love to see GPU support for Plan9. This discussion falls right int= o my professional capacity. I'll say that people generally *grossly* under= estimate the complexity of a modern GPU and of its supporting software stac= k. The GPU driver is effectively a second operating system with shared mem= ory and DMA interfaces to the host. Even bringing up a modern GPU for just= compute tasks is a very large endeavour. >>=20 >> That being said, if you want real hardware support, the best place to st= art is currently AMD's open-source stack. Ignoring the Vulkan bit, underst= anding their platform abstraction layer (PAL) and shader ISA (https://devel= oper.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July2017.pdf ) is t= he base. The lower hardware levels are reasonably well-described in linux'= s libdrm and its AMD support in amdgpu. >>=20 >> Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9? I don't really have any - it's = a huge pile of work with minimal benefit. If you're looking for lightweigh= t graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and almost certainly the right way to e= xperiment with Plan9-like interfaces to graphics hardware. >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri > wrote: >>=20 >> 22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow >: >> > Also: >> >> people have discussed that for years >> > >> > They have? I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely >> > going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". That isn't >> > discussion. >>=20 >> I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. I'v= e=20 >> only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece o= f=20 >> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her= =20 >> partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like=20 >> it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it. >>=20 >> Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for= =20 >> Plan 9 and nobody knows about it. >>=20 >> sirjofri >>=20 >> Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some=20 >> details. >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------ >> 9fans: 9fans >> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-Md3= d5cd693c12f948ad4720bc >> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription <= https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- Bakul >=20 > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery=C2=A0options Permalink ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-M69dfd= 52c6b6d85727b06d9dc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_48EA5E36-57D8-49C4-B65F-88A7828528C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Thanks. L= ooks like Sutherland's "= Wheel of Reincarnation" has not only stopped but exploded :-) Or s= topped being applicable.

-- Bakul

On Aug 22, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Paul Lalon= de <paul.a.lalond= e@gmail.com> wrote:

<= div class=3D"">
It got complicated because there= 's no stable interface or ISA.  The hardware evolved from fixed-fu= nction to programmable in a commercial environment where the only meaningfu= l measure was raw performance per dollar at many price points.  Every = year the hardware spins and becomes more performant, usually faster than Mo= ore's law.  With 3D APIs hiding the hardware details there is no p= ressure to make the hardware interface uniform, pretty, or neat.  And = with the need for performance there are dozens of fixed function units that= effectively need their own sub-drivers while coordinating at high performa= nce with the other units. 
The system diagrams for GPU= s look complex, but they are radical simplifications of what's really o= n the inside.

Intel r= eally pioneered the open driver stacks, but performance generally wasn'= t there.  That might be changing now, but I don't know if their re= cently announced discrete product line will be driver-compatible.

Paul


On Sun, Aug 22, 2021= at 8:48 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
The FreeBS= D amdgpu.ko is over 3Mbytes of compiled code. Not counting the "firmwa= re" that gets loaded on the GPU board. drm/amd/amdgpu has 200K+ lines = of source code. drm/amd over 2M lines of code. Intel's i915 seems to be= about 1/10th the amd size. AIUI, this is linux GPU driver code, more or le= ss unchanged (FreeBSD has shim code to use it). How did the interface to an= SIMD processor get so complicated?

On Aug 22, 20= 21, at 6:44 AM, Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd love = to see  GPU support for Plan9.  This discussion falls right into = my professional capacity.  I'll say that people generally *grossly= * underestimate the complexity of a modern GPU and of its supporting softwa= re stack.  The GPU driver is effectively a second operating system wit= h shared memory and DMA interfaces to the host.  Even bringing up a mo= dern GPU for just compute tasks is a very large endeavour.
<= br class=3D"" />
That being said, if you want rea= l hardware support, the best place to start is currently AMD's open-sou= rce stack.  Ignoring the Vulkan bit, understanding their platform abst= raction layer (PAL) and shader ISA (https://developer.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July2= 017.pdf) is the base.  The lower hardware levels are reasonably we= ll-described in linux's libdrm and its AMD support in amdgpu.

Opinions on how to = bring this to Plan9?  I don't really have any - it's a huge pi= le of work with minimal benefit.  If you're looking for lightweigh= t graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and almost certainly the right way to e= xperiment with Plan9-like interfaces to graphics hardware.

Paul



On= Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.= de> wrote:

22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow <morrow.stuart@gmail.com>:
> Also:
>> people have discussed that for years
>
> They have?  I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely=
> going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". = ; That isn't
> discussion.

I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. I&= #39;ve
only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece of <= br class=3D"" /> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like
it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it.

Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for Plan 9 and nobody knows about it.

sirjofri

Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some
details.

------------------------------------------
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