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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="k@pixelheresy.com"; helo=mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de; client-ip=5.45.100.188 Received: from mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de [5.45.100.188]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 05:46:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from k@pixelheresy.com) Received: from [192.168.8.108] (212-17-162-67.amt.ax [212.17.162.67]) by mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F9D482564 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 11:46:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Keith Gibbs Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 12:46:42 +0300 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18D52) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35e8b850-0009-11ec-aa12-e09137bc73ab Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NNGE5Njg1OTcxMTFjM2U1OTQ2MGFh?= =?UTF-8?B?YjQyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M4a968597111c3e59460aab42:1:Q7ytOuJjvO-EpIRculh3i8RAflKPDoZCv3LPkE1_rqA Sorry for posting the other to the original title. Was authoring it prior t= o your subject change and sent it after.=20 Will happily reply to this thread if it continues.=20 But in the meantime, you can lock me in the stocks and throw fruit ;).=20 -pixelheresy=20 > On 18 Aug 2021, at 10:04, Skip Tavakkolian w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI changed the Subject line to better reflect the discussion. Ple= ase do go on. >=20 >> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:57 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >>=20 >>> On 8/17/21, Keith Gibbs wrote: >>> One Plan Nine? >>>=20 >>> Sure, we have the historical version of the Bell Labs/Lucient codebase, >>> preserved as 9legacy, but yeah we have one currently developed branch of >>> Plan 9 called 9front. Are you proposing that to be called =E2=80=9CPlan= 9 from Bell >>> Labs 5th edition=E2=80=9D? >>>=20 >> I bet you think I don't; you wouldn't ask, otherwise. >>=20 >>> To be serious though, when has monolithic code bases ever benefited thi= ngs >>> in an Open Source community? >>=20 >> You bought the "exceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel, >> haven't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remain >> small, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we raise the bar >> higher and higher and shake off whatever can't stick hard enough. A >> human natural instinct (more!, gimme more! features! bugs! anything so >> I can have bigger, faster!) bent to the interest of elites (here in >> Africa we know it as the Big Man Syndrome). >>=20 >>> I mean the only reason would be to control who >>> can/cannot make decisions on what goes in the stone soup. >> Do you have incontrovertible evidence? In my caffeine-deprived state, >> I feel you're just following the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In >> my opinion, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the >> masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure >> comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the message >> and of course they then distort it in the direction that suits them >> best. And the masses are none the wiser, not this time, not the next >> time, not any other time, because the elite can be swapped out >> entirely and the new elite becomes them, ad nauseam. >>=20 >>> There are multiple >>> BSDs. There are multiple Linuxes. Using 9legacy as more than historical >>> baseline means that we will be stuck with decisions put in place 20-30 = years >>> ago rather than iterating and moving things forward. The purpose of P9F= is >>> to =E2=80=9Cpromote and support=E2=80=9D not to regulate. >>>=20 >> Sure, and an infinite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four >> corners and seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based >> fuels. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power >> generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look >> different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than there in >> style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit idle (my estimate) >> 95% of their life: is that what they are designed for? And the AI in >> my phone, is that also sitting idle? I had a couple of instances >> recently where in the middle of the night my password locked Samsung >> J5 decided to continue reading me the SF short story collection I >> turned off before going to sleep. >>=20 >> But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under the bonned, can't= I? >>=20 >> Well, the P9F is what it is. It will also become what it is naturally >> attracted to unless some boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in >> place. >>=20 >>> I would love to imagine a time when we have a resurgence of multiple Pl= an >>> 9s. I would love to see Akaros and 9atom have a shot in the arm [althou= gh >>> much of what the latter had seems to be swallowed up by 9front and 9leg= acy >>> and the project dead]. I would love to see NIX get a little more tracti= on, >>> as it seems it is just a standalone experiment [albeit a cool one in te= rms >>> of goals]. I think it would be really healthy for Jeanne and Harvey to = be >>> more closer to =E2=80=9Cfamily=E2=80=9D in the community rather than th= ird cousins. Once we >>> have a plurality of opinions, of perspectives, of visions, then we can >>> better broker standards and overall trajectories. >>>=20 >> I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect that I >> totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, need is not a >> strong enough word for what I'm thinking, for creativity, but software >> is not a primordial soup out of which complex organisms will rise to >> take over the Universe and consume it out of existence, its and >> theirs. >>=20 >> More likely, we'll teach - by example, not intentionally, no - our AI >> products to weaponise the tools we are no longer sufficiently >> naturally intelligent to understand and control (tell me there's a >> difference) and turn us into slaves because, like the human elite, >> they will measure their worth in what they can accumulate (human >> slaves sounds like a neat currency to me, I could use some, it's >> worked in all of human history - ask Epstein), just like their >> creators did. >>=20 >> Nothing to do with Plan 9, of course, because it really is just a drop >> of accidental sanity in an ocean of greed and competition. But, to >> complete the imagery, I'd rather be plankton in a drop of Plan 9 than >> a shark in the Linux Ocean. And I am, to the extent that I support and >> most of all appreciate what makes my ecosystem continue to tick. >> Including any contributions by like-minded or antagonistically natured >> geniuses. >>=20 >> Lucio. >>=20 >> PS: I have a lot of time to think and unfortunately not the means to >> study beyond a rather narrow subject matter. So my opinions are much >> more the result of introspection than of universal knowledge. Take it >> for what it is. >>=20 >> PPS: There is always an elite, its job is to defeat by all means >> available a middle class whose "elite nouveau" continually attempts to >> replace it, by any means available to it. Everything revolves around >> who owns the masses. 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