* Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. @ 2001-06-11 5:13 okamoto 2001-06-11 6:14 ` Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Lucio De Re ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: okamoto @ 2001-06-11 5:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 688 bytes --] When I tried to show it to our students, yes, I also felt it's not easy to do. However, as I know Plan 9 is very easy to maintain system and users, and to write programs, I started to do it by reading papers such as "Plan 9 from Bell Labs" etc. with them. Today, I asked Yoshitatsu what was his first impression of Plan 9 when he touched, and his answer is that it was "then, so what?". :-) I understand it, because Plan 9 doesn't have "killer application" except of acme. which is only for programmers or system maintainers. However, he is writing Plan 9 application now. However, this is not accepted by many of Japanese _SOFTWARE_ companies, if any... (sigh) Kenji [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2031 bytes --] From: Laura Creighton <lac@cd.chalmers.se> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: lac@cd.chalmers.se Subject: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:30:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <200106080930.LAA04591@boris.cd.chalmers.se> I want to make a `this is plan 9' presentation to them. Can I get notes and stuff from you? Also, what works? What will impress them? And yes i _have_ the papers from 1127, the stuff I want to steal from you is what you did with that. Thanks very much, Laura Creighton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) 2001-06-11 5:13 [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here okamoto @ 2001-06-11 6:14 ` Lucio De Re 2001-06-11 14:28 ` [9fans] " Theo Honohan 2001-06-11 8:10 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here Borja Marcos 2001-06-11 9:06 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here pac 2 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2001-06-11 6:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Apologies for taking Laura Creighton's name in vain :-) On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:13:56PM +0900, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote: > > When I tried to show it to our students, yes, I also felt it's not easy to do. > However, as I know Plan 9 is very easy to maintain system and users, and > to write programs, I started to do it by reading papers such as "Plan 9 from > Bell Labs" etc. with them. > My enthusiasm was certainly fired by the papers, it was a long time after I discovered the first set of Plan 9 documents that I was given a chance to look at it. > Today, I asked Yoshitatsu what was his first impression of Plan 9 when he > touched, and his answer is that it was "then, so what?". :-) I understand it, > because Plan 9 doesn't have "killer application" except of acme. which is > only for programmers or system maintainers. However, he is writing Plan 9 > application now. However, this is not accepted by many of Japanese _SOFTWARE_ > companies, if any... (sigh) > Based on my somewhat narrow view of the computer field in the last few years, there have been very few killer apps: Lotus 1-2-3 (a better Visicalc, I should imagine), the web browser, MS Office (in an odd sense); underrated, but susprisingly significant (in my opinion, of course) are Quake and Microsoft Outlook. Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer. Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as Plan 9 is today. Outlook is important because it is practically transparent. Most users are unlikely to know whether it is the Office version or Express as delivered with Internet Explorer. All Outlook users seem to believe that everyone else is also using Outlook, a bit like all automobile drivers assume that all other automobile driver knows what a steering wheel is. This insidious penetration is Microsoft's strongest marketing ploy. Plan 9 has too many of these aces up its sleeve. Like Linux, it should concentrate all its efforts on a single one, but of course, like with Linux, it is its community that defines the direction development takes. Without excluding myself from the criticism, the Plan 9 culture is inherently elitist, rather than evangelical. I'm about to embark on a cross-host debugging session (Inferno, rather than Plan 9, I'm not sure how successful I'm likely to be) and only when confronted by this need, did I realise that Laura's question about impressing students should have been answered by a cross-host task, the more convoluted, the better. No one else has proposed such an idea, and yet the main strength of the fileserver approach lies clearly in that quarter. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: ..." I really love that phrase. Plan 9's strengths are so self-evident, even we can't see them anymore :-) ++L PS: The jist of it all, is that ACME is Plan 9's killer app. If we could turn a Plan 9 system into a cross-platform (hardware _and_ Operating System platform, that is) development tool, it would doubtlessly eclipse the current IDEs. Porting Limbo (Alef) to the popular platforms (thank you, Bell-Labs and Vitanuova for Inferno, it's a pity we have to ask for more), with Acme, RC, the Plumber and MK, would be a great start. But these are not market oriented dreams, they address a more ideal than realistic world. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) 2001-06-11 6:14 ` Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Lucio De Re @ 2001-06-11 14:28 ` Theo Honohan 2001-06-11 21:18 ` Boyd Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Theo Honohan @ 2001-06-11 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Monday 11 June, Lucio De Re wrote ("Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.)"): > > Without excluding myself from the criticism, the Plan 9 culture is > inherently elitist, rather than evangelical. I'm about to embark on a > cross-host debugging session (Inferno, rather than Plan 9, I'm not > sure how successful I'm likely to be) and only when confronted by this > need, did I realise that Laura's question about impressing students > should have been answered by a cross-host task, the more convoluted, > the better. No one else has proposed such an idea, and yet the main > strength of the fileserver approach lies clearly in that quarter. Absolutely! Well said. I spent several futile hours at the weekend trying to articulate exactly that point. If the students have encountered the pseudo-network-transparency of X11 or NFS, they'll immediately appreciate the advantages of the Plan 9 approach. It's all about just presenting the three main design principles listed in the overview paper. Then, you show that the Plan 9 approach solves all of the same problems as X, ssh X-forwarding, NFS and VNC, in a much cleaner way. That should appeal to any CS student. Then you show how it goes way beyond that, allowing fine-grained cross-host sharing of resources. Russ's anecdote about Windows and ssh is a good example: http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2000-October/007937.html Not everyone will immediately recognize the need for that kind of contortion, but people who have developed software across multiple machines, or have run their own small network of Linux boxes, will be sent into transports of delight. I'm less convinced that Acme is a good selling point; people are unlikely to see a new editor or IDE and think "Oh, I want to change editors!" Habits are hard to break, and editors are a matter of personal taste (as are mouse chords...) Theo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) 2001-06-11 14:28 ` [9fans] " Theo Honohan @ 2001-06-11 21:18 ` Boyd Roberts 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-11 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > If the students have encountered the pseudo-network-transparency of X11 > or NFS, they'll immediately appreciate the advantages of the Plan 9 > approach. as i recall, the returning NFS guru's from Sun (have they served an TM injunction on the owner of that star yet?), when i was working for _the instruction set_, set about to teach us about it, in an internal course. i must have been 23 at the time and as soon as i heard UDP mentioned i asked questions along the lines of 'are they mad'? i was told not to worry -- hah, hah. real worry set in when they asked me to port the kernel in 7 weeks (16 weeks being the current VAX -> 68020 port speed of the 2.0 release and the '20 was far from stable -- all sorts of glue to get it to take its faults/lumps correctly). well it didn't take too long, once i realised that it was just a in-line diff-ing of similar sources driven by someone who knew both kernels, the odd machine dependent glop and byte order problem, followed by a good thrashing to death against a Sun to see if it worked -- it didn't. all the world's a vax so some of XDR was just hosed. fix that, thrash it, play chess -- we're _ahead_ of schedule. i think this is the 'storm trooper' school of coding. maybe 'starship trooper' school if you're a yes fan: shining, flying, purple wolfhound show me where you are much like those XDR bugs. but the line is from 'yours is no disgrace'. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. 2001-06-11 5:13 [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here okamoto 2001-06-11 6:14 ` Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Lucio De Re @ 2001-06-11 8:10 ` Borja Marcos 2001-06-11 13:39 ` GL again (was Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Theo Honohan 2001-06-11 9:06 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here pac 2 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Borja Marcos @ 2001-06-11 8:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Monday 11 June 2001 07:13, you wrote: > When I tried to show it to our students, yes, I also felt it's not easy to > do. However, as I know Plan 9 is very easy to maintain system and users, > and to write programs, I started to do it by reading papers such as "Plan 9 > from Bell Labs" etc. with them. Plan 9 is a distributed system. It looks especially designed for heterogeneous networks, the kind of real-world applications you can find. When I read the first paper about the design of Plan 9 and its way to accomodate heterogeneous networks, with both high-speed local networks and slow-speed dialup accesses, it was quite obvious that a similar design (and it was the Inferno design goal) would be excellent for a service provider such as a cable modem network (or xDSL) who deploys "network computers" instead of simple set-top boxes. Other distributed OSs (Amoeba, for example) are designed with local area networks in mind, using the network as a bus for a processor pool if I oversimplify it. Plan 9, on the other hand, allows the developer and network architect distribute the applications taking into account the available bandwidth in each of the networks involved. In a real world network, the bandwidths can be as low as 33600 bps (a pstn modem) and as high as a gigabit. Apart from the elegant design, I think it can be the most interesting feature for many people. Borja. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* GL again (was Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) 2001-06-11 8:10 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here Borja Marcos @ 2001-06-11 13:39 ` Theo Honohan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Theo Honohan @ 2001-06-11 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Monday 11 June, Borja Marcos wrote: > > In a real world network, the bandwidths can be as low as 33600 > bps (a pstn modem) and as high as a gigabit. Apart from the elegant > design, I think it can be the most interesting feature for many > people. Speaking of gigabit, and the idea of supporting distributed OpenGL, I just noticed some recent work from the Stanford "Mural" people, which describes a new OpenGL stream protocol, called WireGL. It's intended to be a portable and scalable replacement for GLX, with a view to cluster rendering. So, that might be interesting to look at, given that they've already done all the hard work... http://graphics.stanford.edu/software/wiregl/research.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. 2001-06-11 5:13 [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here okamoto 2001-06-11 6:14 ` Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Lucio De Re 2001-06-11 8:10 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here Borja Marcos @ 2001-06-11 9:06 ` pac 2001-06-11 12:29 ` pac 2 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: pac @ 2001-06-11 9:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Hi, I am a computer self -made-man, and will, probably, be pretty green in CS forever (I am a researcher in biology). However, I am _so_ impressed by Plan 9, and I'll tell you why: i) it shifts the paradigm from kernel to a universal protocol ii) everything is a file iii) it is _clean_ as it consistently uses i and ii, iv) it was designed from scratch with an _idea_ in mind v) the creators were not afraid (unlike many others) to throw away anything from the old stuff that seemed garbage vi) it is _elegant_, AFAI can judge, (cf., e.g., how elegantly it got rid of the X11, sic!) vii) it is minimalistic, I mean that everything is implemented carefully with respect to possible overhead, instead of "just be satisfied, boy, that the app works, and don't bother how (and why :-) I have some previous experience as a user/programmer under the following "OSes" (strating in mid-eighties): TI programmable calculator :-) -> CP/M -> DOS -> Windoze -> NEXTSTEP -> OpenStep -> GNU-Linux . I repeat I am a _greenhorn_ in CS, but take this as a "look from outside". Hope Plan 9 will remain clean, elegant, and open in the future (to remain also free would be nice, at least for us `Easties'). Thanks for it. Cheers, Peter. -- Peter A. Cejchan Dept. Paleobiology, Inst. Geology Acad. Sci., Rozvojova 135, Prague 6 CZ-16502 Czech Republic <cej@cejchan.gli.cas.cz> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A plea: Please, consider your support to the Public Library of Science initiative at http://www.publiclibraryofscience.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. 2001-06-11 9:06 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here pac @ 2001-06-11 12:29 ` pac 2001-06-11 12:27 ` Axel Belinfante 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: pac @ 2001-06-11 12:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans ix) it is modular x) believe me or not, I like it's UI (actually, originally I was attracted to Plan 9 by 9wm of Linux...but in those days Plan 9 was not free and open source) - it is so different and minimalistic, and I was impressed -- Peter A. Cejchan Dept. Paleobiology, Inst. Geology Acad. Sci., Rozvojova 135, Prague 6 CZ-16502 Czech Republic <cej@cejchan.gli.cas.cz> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A plea: Please, consider your support to the Public Library of Science initiative at http://www.publiclibraryofscience.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. 2001-06-11 12:29 ` pac @ 2001-06-11 12:27 ` Axel Belinfante 2001-06-11 12:50 ` pac 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Axel Belinfante @ 2001-06-11 12:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > x) believe me or not, I like it's UI (actually, originally I was attracted > to Plan 9 by 9wm of Linux...but in > those days Plan 9 was not free and open source) - it is so different and mini > malistic, and I was impressed Same here: sam -> reading about help, and being impressed -> wily -> acme, and of course 9term :-) (I still remember the day when I in 'automatic non-thinking editing mode' I used an editing chord in my mail program (exmh) - did not work, sigh ;-)) Axel. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here. 2001-06-11 12:27 ` Axel Belinfante @ 2001-06-11 12:50 ` pac 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: pac @ 2001-06-11 12:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans xi) Unicode xii) system-wide cut and paste -- Peter A. Cejchan Dept. Paleobiology, Inst. Geology Acad. Sci., Rozvojova 135, Prague 6 CZ-16502 Czech Republic <cej@cejchan.gli.cas.cz> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A plea: Please, consider your support to the Public Library of Science initiative at http://www.publiclibraryofscience.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-06-11 21:18 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2001-06-11 5:13 [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here okamoto 2001-06-11 6:14 ` Laura's theme (Long) (Was: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Lucio De Re 2001-06-11 14:28 ` [9fans] " Theo Honohan 2001-06-11 21:18 ` Boyd Roberts 2001-06-11 8:10 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here Borja Marcos 2001-06-11 13:39 ` GL again (was Re: [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here.) Theo Honohan 2001-06-11 9:06 ` [9fans] I've got 4 student intern (undergraduates) here pac 2001-06-11 12:29 ` pac 2001-06-11 12:27 ` Axel Belinfante 2001-06-11 12:50 ` pac
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