From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] source code as data not text From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-nzamajtoosgfipbhhziclutakp" Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:43:13 +0100 Topicbox-Message-UUID: bbdb6c66-eac9-11e9-9e20-41e7f4b1d025 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-nzamajtoosgfipbhhziclutakp Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The basic premise is that when an editor knows about what source code is and >> does it can offer new views of it etc. >> >> Anyone got any views of their own? Yes. It's not a matter of being hard-core. The fundamental premise is that text is the only universal format. If you keep the 'data' in a 'database', then how do other tools reason on it? Only if they can read the format, of course. This tends to mean, "only if they're from the same vendor". Keeping your 'data' in a universally agreed format is important. I would contend that text is the only one for source code. Having structural information is important, but the common format must not thrown away in pursuit of it. The concept is in direct opposition to the toolset principle. But, in this case, the guy is actually promoting strict syntax directed editing, a well-worn-out concept. Under the section "Real World SCID Implementations", he says The usual reaction I get from programmers when I mention SCIDs is that they have tried them and they hate them. What they have tried are coding templates where you fill in the blanks. These stop you from coding in the old way, yet offer almost no payback. Granted SCIDs will force you to rethink how you compose programs. Code must at all times be 100% syntactically correct. However, a good SCID will pay back 100 fold for this inconvenience. If you try to import or paste code that is not correct, you will find much of it being turned into a special kind of comment 'Nuff said. You really don't want it. The last thing you want when in the middle of creating something is to have an editor forcing you to dot the I's and cross the t's. Composition of programs is not linear, in exactly the same way as a novelist might be writing the introduction, the guts, and the end all at the same time. So even if syntactically correct entry is an improvement over coding templates, they both force an uncomfortable approach which strangles creativity. The programmers aren't wrong, there is plenty of research to support this, and he shouldn't be so dismissive. Every so often someone ressurects this idea. In this case, despite his claim to have been promoting it since the 70's, he doesn't mention any of the classic research on the subject, which started at least as early as the 70's. Try reading papers on the Gandalf project as a starting point. --upas-nzamajtoosgfipbhhziclutakp Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by cpu; Mon Jun 18 01:32:24 BST 2001 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8EB76199F8; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D4871199DD for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freeze2k ([62.254.2.198]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010618003135.CQKL351.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@freeze2k> for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:31:35 +0100 Message-ID: <00d701c0f78d$fb26d750$6401a8c0@freeze2k> From: "Matt" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [9fans] source code as data not text Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:31:13 +0100 Maybe I'm not hard-core enough but one thing I miss is syntax highlighting. And if you go so far as to parse the source code in the editor then you can use the opportunity to develop the idea. There are some good ideas in a paper here http://mindprod.com/scid.html about source code living in a database rather than a plain text file. The basic premise is that when an editor knows about what source code is and does it can offer new views of it etc. Anyone got any views of their own? matt --upas-nzamajtoosgfipbhhziclutakp--