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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="k@pixelheresy.com"; helo=mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de; client-ip=5.45.100.188 Received: from mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de [5.45.100.188]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 03:08:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from k@pixelheresy.com) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (212-17-162-67.amt.ax [212.17.162.67]) by mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 351108253F for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:08:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Keith Gibbs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_57969AC2-5AD9-42D3-8772-96FFDB1DB553" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 10:08:05 +0300 References: <16293151820.7F7690f.28382@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3785832e-00bc-11ec-a23b-f218823fd910 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NNTFmMGE2NzExMjhlNjQzYWI5NmI2?= =?UTF-8?B?YjExPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M51f0a671128e643ab96b6b11:1:M64dFNA53AJ5q21x3vJEKEC-vxsqm_RiGrAgUdK0dEo --Apple-Mail=_57969AC2-5AD9-42D3-8772-96FFDB1DB553 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hej Eli, I think, philosophically, there is a disconnect re: the status of 9front vs= 9legacy by 9legacy folks. Even David suggested that 9legacy is =E2=80=9Cre= al=E2=80=9D Plan 9, rather than a fork. Fundamentally this is semantics, bu= t it leads to seeing them as fundamentally different things, when they real= ly aren=E2=80=99t. The true disconnect is what position within each hold in regards to each ot= her. Historically, forks (after a point) stay forks and no longer contribut= e =E2=80=9Cupstream=E2=80=9D to their parent for love and cookies. They bec= ome cooperative peers [in good cases] or competition [in not so good cases]= . Even *if* 9legacy is the =E2=80=9Ctrue" torchbearer, the fork happened ag= es ago. Some in the 9legacy camp see 9front as a downstream project that sh= ould [be forced] to make patches for the =E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D Plan 9. Mos= t 9front devs and users see them as peer projects and feel that pointing to= the source code and letting 9legacy folks make their own patch the reasona= ble answer. Most 9front people have no vested interest in porting anything = to 9legacy, since it is not the one they use. To them, it is like Ubuntu be= ing expected to upstream cherry picked features and bug changes hand select= ed by Debian developers who don=E2=80=99t want to do it. Pretty absurd. Insofar as what David du Colombier said that 9legacy is a =E2=80=9Ccontinua= tion=E2=80=9D of Plan 9 from Bell Labs, sure. However, cinap or hiro or Ori= or a bunch of other people here can make that same argument with 9front. 9= front came about because people were slow to fix things or reticent to chan= ge things. In this way, *both* are continuations.=20 But in the end, looking at the project as a peer vs project as a subordinat= e offshoot frames how further dialog and cooperation is done. In the former= , we can point at code, debate healthy re: what level of compatibility is w= orth it [i.e. what Plan 9 from Bell Labs version 2 software are you really = wanting to run and not just update a few lines of code=E2=80=A6], what prov= isional changes can be made to fix issues but maintain old interfaces while= everyone catch up, bugs in the legacy code that can be fixed, how can we c= ollectively showcase software tools [non-OS code] made by the collective co= mmunity, etc. In the latter, it will typically degrade to finger wagging fo= r doing something that steps over some invisible line or demanding that spe= cific changes be ported to the =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D one=E2=80=A6 i.e. 9fr= ont contributors have the bulk of the emotional and physical labor supporti= ng a version they will never use. hiro made a bit of a tongue in cheek, shit talking quip re: =E2=80=9Clol bu= t it is=E2=80=9D since 9front, for good or for bad, probably commits orders= of magnitude more code than other 9family projects. And from the 9front ml= and code discussions, the community does keep pretty high standards in not= just committing crap, cruft, or flights of fancy into the repo. Design wis= e, both 9legacy and 9front stick to simplicity and cleanliness present in t= he software culture of the Bell Labs team. It isn=E2=80=99t like one is cra= zy bloat and the other is elegant=E2=80=A6 more that one is less adverse to= pulling the out the whole engine to fix the car and the other is more adve= rse. One is less interested in backwards compatibility with versions from 2= 0 years ago for backwards compatibility sake and one wants to not have anyt= hing not run that V4 can. Both are different strategies and have different = benefits... So not to belabour things further, I think we kind of need to come to somew= hat of a consensus re: how these two project relate. I honestly think that = imposing a =E2=80=9COne Plan 9=E2=80=9D or reframing 9legacy as the authori= tative parent project will in fact harm 9legacy more the 9front, as the lat= ter is more comfortable doing its own thing and honestly, 9front works bett= er on more hardware and is more actively updated and supported. Agreeing th= at both projects are sister projects allows more dialog and actual sharing = to happen. My intention was not to spark some sort of holy war and I get the feeling m= ost people in this community see the two are peer projects. When people flo= at the idea of the P9F imposing a =E2=80=9COne Plan 9=E2=80=9D by dictum ra= ther than the actual codebases, community members, etc. deciding how things= should work, well, that needs to be called out=E2=80=A6 -pixelheresy > On 19. Aug 2021, at 1.00, Eli Cohen wrote: >=20 > what is all the friction actually about here?? the most important > philosophical question always ends up the same, how can we figure out > a good formula for not being jerks? >=20 > I have ended up using 9front more and more, obviously. 9front was > started specifically to address the fact that Plan 9 from Bell Labs > didn't run on most computers... If I have any feeling at all about it, > it's that there's room for another fork that is an even simpler > research platform. in other discussions people say, why do we have > things that aren't relevant? We all love catclock, email... some users > may only want plan 9 for that... some people also discussed even > removing compiled binaries as much as possible. mostly, I like the > idea of plan 9 that runs on the computer I have... but I understand > that for a lot of reasons other people don't necessarily feel the same > way. >=20 > we wouldn't be here if we didn't agree Plan 9 is the best OS design. > and they're all free software. 9front has some very interesting things > that 9legacy can (and does) use as patches. it's just actually > difficult to write software, for some value of difficulty. >=20 > there's a lot of shit going on in the world today... we all gathered > here to agree Plan 9 is great software, then just be rude to each > other because...? I really don't understand, I'm not exaggerating. > what is the actual disagreement here? >=20 > On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:12 PM David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com > wrote: >>=20 >> Here are some clarifications. >>=20 >> 9legacy used to be a an experimental patch queue for >> Plan 9 from Bell Labs, providing patches that were not >> yet accepted into the mainline distribution. That's why >> we didn't recommend to use 9legacy, unless you had >> specific needs. >>=20 >> However, this isn't really the case since 2015, because >> Plan 9 from Bell Labs is not maintained anymore >> (last release was 2015-01-10). >>=20 >> Today, 9legacy is more of a continuation of Plan 9 from Bell Labs. >> There are still experimental patches, but also a lot of fixes and >> improvements that would probably be part of Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> if it was still maintained. >>=20 >> Also, NIX is not maintained anymore. However, there are >> some other variants of 9k (the 64-bit Plan 9 kernel), including >> the one available as part of 9legacy, that are still in progress. >>=20 >> -- >> David du Colombier >=20 > ------------------------------------------ > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-Me55= ae2eef0de0a39ecd205ad > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M51f0a= 671128e643ab96b6b11 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_57969AC2-5AD9-42D3-8772-96FFDB1DB553 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Hej Eli,

I think, philoso= phically, there is a disconnect re: the status of 9front vs 9legacy by 9leg= acy folks. Even David suggested that 9legacy is “real” Plan 9, = rather than a fork. Fundamentally this is semantics, but it leads to seeing= them as fundamentally different things, when they really aren’t.
The true disconnect is w= hat position within each hold in regards to each other. Historically, forks= (after a point) stay forks and no longer contribute “upstream”= to their parent for love and cookies. They become cooperative peers [in go= od cases] or competition [in not so good cases]. Even *if* 9legacy is the &= ldquo;true" torchbearer, the fork happened ages ago. Some in the 9lega= cy camp see 9front as a downstream project that should [be forced] to make = patches for the “true” Plan 9. Most 9front devs and users see t= hem as peer projects and feel that pointing to the source code and letting = 9legacy folks make their own patch the reasonable answer. Most 9front peopl= e have no vested interest in porting anything to 9legacy, since it is not t= he one they use. To them, it is like Ubuntu being expected to upstream cher= ry picked features and bug changes hand selected by Debian developers who d= on’t want to do it. Pretty absurd.

Insofar as what David du Colombier said that 9leg= acy is a “continuation” of Plan 9 from Bell Labs, sure. However= , cinap or hiro or Ori or a bunch of other people here can make that same a= rgument with 9front. 9front came about because people were slow to fix thin= gs or reticent to change things. In this way, *both* are continuations.&nbs= p;

But in the e= nd, looking at the project as a peer vs project as a subordinate offshoot f= rames how further dialog and cooperation is done. In the former, we can poi= nt at code, debate healthy re: what level of compatibility is worth it [i.e= . what Plan 9 from Bell Labs version 2 software are you really wanting to r= un and not just update a few lines of code…], what provisional chang= es can be made to fix issues but maintain old interfaces while everyone cat= ch up, bugs in the legacy code that can be fixed, how can we collectively s= howcase software tools [non-OS code] made by the collective community, etc.= In the latter, it will typically degrade to finger wagging for doing somet= hing that steps over some invisible line or demanding that specific changes= be ported to the “real” one… i.e. 9front contributors h= ave the bulk of the emotional and physical labor supporting a version they = will never use.

hiro made a bit of a tongue in cheek, shit talking quip re: “lol but= it is” since 9front, for good or for bad, probably commits orders of= magnitude more code than other 9family projects. And from the 9front ml an= d code discussions, the community does keep pretty high standards in not ju= st committing crap, cruft, or flights of fancy into the repo. Design wise, = both 9legacy and 9front stick to simplicity and cleanliness present in the = software culture of the Bell Labs team. It isn’t like one is crazy bl= oat and the other is elegant… more that one is less adverse to pulli= ng the out the whole engine to fix the car and the other is more adverse. O= ne is less interested in backwards compatibility with versions from 20 year= s ago for backwards compatibility sake and one wants to not have anything n= ot run that V4 can. Both are different strategies and have different benefi= ts...

So not to= belabour things further, I think we kind of need to come to somewhat of a = consensus re: how these two project relate. I honestly think that imposing = a “One Plan 9” or reframing 9legacy as the authoritative parent= project will in fact harm 9legacy more the 9front, as the latter is more c= omfortable doing its own thing and honestly, 9front works better on more ha= rdware and is more actively updated and supported. Agreeing that both proje= cts are sister projects allows more dialog and actual sharing to happen.

My intention was = not to spark some sort of holy war and I get the feeling most people in thi= s community see the two are peer projects. When people float the idea of th= e P9F imposing a “One Plan 9” by dictum rather than the actual = codebases, community members, etc. deciding how things should work, well, t= hat needs to be called out…

-pixelheresy

On 19. Aug 2021, at 1.00, = Eli Cohen <echoline@gma= il.com> wrote:

what is all the frict= ion actually about here?? the most important
philosophical question always ends up the same, how= can we figure out
a = good formula for not being jerks?

I have ended up using= 9front more and more, obviously. 9front was
started specifically to address the fact that Plan = 9 from Bell Labs
didn= 't run on most computers... If I have any feeling at all about it,
it's that there's= room for another fork that is an even simpler
research platform. in other discussions people = say, why do we have
t= hings that aren't relevant? We all love catclock, email... some users
may only want plan 9 f= or that... some people also discussed even
removing compiled binaries as much as possible. mostl= y, I like the
idea of= plan 9 that runs on the computer I have... but I understand
that for a lot of reasons other peo= ple don't necessarily feel the same
way.

we wouldn't be here if we d= idn't agree Plan 9 is the best OS design.
and they're all free software. 9front has some= very interesting things
that 9legacy can (and does) use as patches. it's just actually
difficult to write softwa= re, for some value of difficulty.

there's a lot of = shit going on in the world today... we all gathered
here to agree Plan 9 is great software, then= just be rude to each
other because...? I really don't understand, I'm not exaggerating.=
what is the actual d= isagreement here?

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:12 PM Davi= d du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com> wrote:

Here are some clarifications.

9leg= acy used to be a an experimental patch queue for
Plan 9 fro= m Bell Labs, providing patches that were not
yet accepted i= nto the mainline distribution. That's why
we didn't= recommend to use 9legacy, unless you had
specific needs.
However, this isn't really the case sin= ce 2015, because
Plan 9 from Bell Labs is not maintained an= ymore
(last release was 2015-01-10).

Today, 9legacy is more of a continuation of Plan 9 from Bell Lab= s.
There are still experimental patches, but also a lot of = fixes and
improvements that would probably be part of Plan = 9 from Bell Labs
if it was still maintained.

Also, NIX is not maintained anymore. However, there are<= br class=3D"" />some other variants of 9k (the 64-bit Plan 9 kernel), inclu= ding
the one available as part of 9legacy, that are still i= n progress.

--
David du Co= lombier

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
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