RE: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

RE: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Stephen Parker]

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I have to (embarrassingly) admit that I've gone back to wince on mine,
after having a paperweight powered by linux, plan9, and inferno.
At least with wince its a working address book.

stephen

(One day I'm still hoping to get bluetooth working with inferno on it,
but not soon.)


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From: Axel Belinfante <Axel.Belinfante@cs.utwente.nl>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 14:38:53 +0100
Message-ID: <200306051338.h55Dcr925505@zamenhof.cs.utwente.nl>

> > What do you other folks with bitsies do with them?
>
> I find they make excellent paper weights.

agreed. :-)
(although mine is usually not even used that way,
 mostly it just doesn't leave the bag I transport
 between home and office)

>  Unfortunately, the input slows me down

I've been wondering how much better the zyrix
is in the respect (if I recall the name correctly),
I'm referring to a linux pda with a built-in keyboard,
that is normally hidden until you slide open the pda.
In principle, the bitsy is much more extensible,
but if that is something really used in practice?

With a wavelan I've been using it as a small
``testing'' and (e.g. network) monitorin device.
It's a nice little terminal to bring to the machine room
several floors down, when I'm changing (rebooting)
the fs and cpu/auth server (cs?), just to check that
things are up and running, before walking upstairs.
Before I had the bitsy, I occasionally brought with
me a heavier, bigger, laptop.

> If we had a web broswer that actually worked it would be much
> more usable.

I've occasionally used it with vnc to unix, to read email via mh
and even run mozilla, with the tiniest font I could find.
Even then, indeed, the screen is rather small.

[9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Geoff Collyer]

I just installed Plan 9 on an ipaq.  Both Booting101 and the wiki need
to be updated.  I bought my ipaq used and it appears to have been
upgraded to Pocket PC 2002.

Booting101 recommends osloader 1.3.0 and bootldr 0000-2.14.8.  None of
the compaq nor handheld web nor ftp sites have osloader-1.3.0 any
more, though you can find it with google.  None of osloader 1.3.0,
1.5.4 and 1.5.6 worked correctly, possibly due to the upgrade to
Pocket PC 2002.  In addition, wince's File Explorer refuses to show
you file extensions and won't even let you change or eliminate them by
renaming, so creating a copy of bootldr called exactly "\bootldr"
required creating such a file on a Windows PC and using ActiveSync to
copy it across to the ipaq.  Running osloader 1.3.0 and selecting
"Run" produced the complaint "comparison error".  Once I got osloader
1.3.0 to load bootldr 0000-2.14.8 (by selecting "Run after loading
from file"), the screen blanked but there was no boot loader talking
on the serial port.

I performed a paper-clip reset and, after assurances from nemo that it
was probably safe, flashed bootldr 0000-2.14.8 using bootblaster 1.18
(select "Program").  This was quite painless and didn't require the
use of xmodem.  I then held the "joybutton"'s center and did another
paper-clip reset.  I got the penguin menu and selected "serial bootldr
console", typed return, and got "boot>".  The first 3 partitions were
already correctly defined; I defined the last 3 and loaded the kernel
and paqdisk via xmodem, reset the ipaq and Plan 9 came up through the
penguin menu.  (Be careful here: the backspace and delete keys are
adjacent on the wee keyboard and it's much too easy to hit delete
instead of backspace, especially if you haven't calibrated the screen
dead-on.)  Suspend and resume seem to work.

I've put copies of the relevant boot loaders and an updated version of
Booting101 at www.collyer.net/who/geoff/9/bitsy/ so that others can
find them easily.

Is anybody working on making the Targus Stowaway collapsible keyboard
work on the ipaq?  It would sure be easier than trying to hit the
right keys on the wee keyboard at the bottom of the screen.

What do you other folks with bitsies do with them?

I found Plan 9 on the bitsy to be less robust than I'd expected.
Running mfs and then acme locally crashed it, as did running mfs and
aux/timesync locally.  When it crashes, I get no messages, just the
penguin (`you lose, back to Linux', I guess).

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

> I just installed Plan 9 on an ipaq.  Both Booting101 and the wiki need
> to be updated.  I bought my ipaq used and it appears to have been

Thanks a lot.

> I've put copies of the relevant boot loaders and an updated version of
> Booting101 at www.collyer.net/who/geoff/9/bitsy/ so that others can
> find them easily.
>

Great. I'll copy your Booting101 to sources

> Is anybody working on making the Targus Stowaway collapsible keyboard
> work on the ipaq?  It would sure be easier than trying to hit the
> right keys on the wee keyboard at the bottom of the screen.

Not that I know.

> What do you other folks with bitsies do with them?

Mostly to listen music and some times for meetings. I run out of
battery so often that I cannot use it as a PDA (use a Palm for that).

> I found Plan 9 on the bitsy to be less robust than I'd expected.
> Running mfs and then acme locally crashed it, as did running mfs and
> aux/timesync locally.  When it crashes, I get no messages, just the
> penguin (`you lose, back to Linux', I guess).

I couldnt reproduce this. Did you recompile the 5[acl] set and all the
libraries and commands for the arm after that. Acme crashed for me before
I did that (I really mean acme, and not the kernel).

Did you have the bitsy on the serial line while crashed? Was there
any message in the serial console? The print for the console is disabled
to avoid cluttering the display, messages go to the serial line instead.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Geoff Collyer]

I pulled, then rebuilt /*/bin/5[acl] and then the whole /arm tree on
May 19th.  Has anything significant changed since then?

I hadn't had the bitsy connected to the serial line when the bitsy
crashed; I'll try that.  Thanks.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

> I pulled, then rebuilt /*/bin/5[acl] and then the whole /arm tree on
> May 19th.  Has anything significant changed since then?

I'm not sure, but I think my paqfs crashed after that date; All I did to
fix the problem was to recompile it. I'd just recompile if only for safety.
Perhaps it was before May 19th, but I just dont remember; sorry.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[David Presotto]

> What do you other folks with bitsies do with them?

I find they make excellent paper weights.  They turned out less
useful than I had hoped (at least to me).  I had originally wanted
to use one as a replacement to carrying a PC.  Unfortunately, the
input slows me down way too much for that and the screen, even
with small fonts, is pretty tight.  The foldable keyboard
would probably help.  I ordered one and it never came.

With a wavelan, it does make a nice remote
control when giving presentations.  Just plug a projector into
a PC, then import the keyboard and mouse from the bitsy, then
start page, rio, or whatever.  There should be more possiblities
there.

It makes a usable voice communications device.  With a little
more support it could be an IP telephone.  Someone would have
to do all the hard stuff to make it compatible with RTP/H323/SIP
whatever.

If you walk around wearing headphones and singing to yourself, then it
makes an OK replacement for an walkman.  At least it makes you look
like you're listening to something rather than just crazy.  A bit
pricey for that unless you get one off of ebay.

If we had a web broswer that actually worked it would be much
more usable.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Axel Belinfante]

> > What do you other folks with bitsies do with them?
>
> I find they make excellent paper weights.

agreed. :-)
(although mine is usually not even used that way,
 mostly it just doesn't leave the bag I transport
 between home and office)

>  Unfortunately, the input slows me down

I've been wondering how much better the zyrix
is in the respect (if I recall the name correctly),
I'm referring to a linux pda with a built-in keyboard,
that is normally hidden until you slide open the pda.
In principle, the bitsy is much more extensible,
but if that is something really used in practice?

With a wavelan I've been using it as a small
``testing'' and (e.g. network) monitorin device.
It's a nice little terminal to bring to the machine room
several floors down, when I'm changing (rebooting)
the fs and cpu/auth server (cs?), just to check that
things are up and running, before walking upstairs.
Before I had the bitsy, I occasionally brought with
me a heavier, bigger, laptop.

> If we had a web broswer that actually worked it would be much
> more usable.

I've occasionally used it with vnc to unix, to read email via mh
and even run mozilla, with the tiniest font I could find.
Even then, indeed, the screen is rather small.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Geoff Collyer]

The zaurus keyboard is too small to be of use to a touch-typist, but
it is better than the wee 9bitsy keyboard.

I had hoped to use my bitsy instead of a laptop and for ssh, mail and
the odd grep, it's probably going to be okay, modulo the input issue.
Web browsing is obviously not really going to work well.  (I suppose
one could port Inferno to Plan 9 on the bitsy.  I'd rather not run
native Inferno because I want 9p [or at least cpu] access to my files.
Even so, the screen limitations make browsing painful; I tried it
under WinCE.)

I think I'm going to try to get the Targus keyboard to work.  What's
the non-power connector on the bottom of the bitsy that connects to
the serial or usb cradle?  Is it just a serial port?  I suppose one
would have to disable the use of the serial port as a serial console
first.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Dan Cross]

I worked on the Targus keyboard a good long while ago.  I meant to
finish getting it working, but the bitsy has been turned off in a
box for a very long time, so the targus hasn't been used.  I'll send
you the code I wrote a little later.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Martin Harriss]

Geoff Collyer wrote:
> ...
> I think I'm going to try to get the Targus keyboard to work.  What's
> the non-power connector on the bottom of the bitsy that connects to
> the serial or usb cradle?  Is it just a serial port?  I suppose one
> would have to disable the use of the serial port as a serial console
> first.
>

It's serial and USB.  Somwhere (handhelds.org?) I found the pin out.  If
it would help I can send it to you.

Martin

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 04:56  PM, Martin Harriss wrote:
> It's serial and USB.  Somwhere (handhelds.org?) I found the pin out.
> If it would help I can send it to you.

Please put this information on the Wiki.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Martin Harriss]

Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>
> On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 04:56  PM, Martin Harriss wrote:
>
>> It's serial and USB.  Somwhere (handhelds.org?) I found the pin out.
>> If it would help I can send it to you.
>
>
> Please put this information on the Wiki.
>
> --lyndon
>

To avoid running afoul of any possible copyright issues, I put a link to
the IPAQ hardware info on the IPAQ page in the Wiki.  The cradle pin-out
info is near the bottom.

Martin

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Jack Johnson]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, David Presotto wrote:
> > What do you other folks with bitsies do with them?
> I find they make excellent paper weights.  They turned out less
[...]
> With a wavelan, it does make a nice remote
[...]
> It makes a usable voice communications device.  With a little
> more support it could be an IP telephone.  Someone would have

I always thought that if I shelled out the money, I'd attempt to utilize
one as a PARCTab on steroids:

http://sandbox.parc.xerox.com/parctab/

I think the big thing is to get away from the idea of using it as a
portable terminal and drag it in some new direction.  Stream audio from
all of the conference rooms and have it hop from room to room as you walk
through the building.  Email/voicemail/pager/fax redirection, at work and
at home.

I've also thought that with the limited display and input, having an IRC
infobot as an agent would be a fun interface to experiment with.  Or maybe
even Googlism ( http://googlism.com ) culling information from your
personal files.  Rather than spending your time looking for a specific
piece of information in a specific application or database and dealing
with the input misery, you just throw out a keyword and skim all the
possible responses.  Maybe a menu of recent queries.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[John Murdie]

On Thu, 2003-06-05 at 17:06, Jack Johnson wrote:
> I always thought that if I shelled out the money, I'd attempt to utilize
> one as a PARCTab on steroids:
>
> http://sandbox.parc.xerox.com/parctab/
> ...
> -Jack

Not long to wait now for the Oqo (http://www.oqo.com/), if you want a
real PC you can hold in your hand - release date September 2003. (Yes, I
know of the Antelope, Tiqit, Zaurii etc and, yes, the lack of a keyboard
or mouse is actually an advantage - think Intel's portable personal
server - http://www.intel.com/research/exploratory/personal_server.htm).
Perhaps the OQO isn't vapourware, after all! (See Wired
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,57023-2,00.html). There's a
nice picture of an OQO prototype at http://www.danionics.com/sw1226.asp.

John A. Murdie
Department of Computer Science
University of York

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Charles Forsyth]

>>I think the big thing is to get away from the idea of using it as a
>>portable terminal and drag it in some new direction.

yes, i think that's right.
having done that you might perhaps suddenly realise that
some of the old things can be re-imported (i'm mainly thinking
of cpu and web browsing here) but in a different and more useful
form (given the form factor) having made the change of mental viewpoint.

it is a curious device: reasonably nice screen (but small space),
non-trivial integer CPU power (but what could you crunch),
touch screen, buttons, flash storage, USB, wireless, ...

one of my practical problems with the ipaq is that the device
components change fast enough that even people working for the
manufacturer can't quite keep up.

Re: [9fans] ipaq installation changes

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

If any of you have run both Plan9 and Inferno on the iPaq I would be
interested in hearing how you think they compare. I'm going to have to
make a decision in a week or so about which one to install. Right now
I'm leaning towards Inferno, primarily because of charon.

--lyndon