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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="k@pixelheresy.com"; helo=mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de; client-ip=5.45.100.188 Received: from mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de [5.45.100.188]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 08:02:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from k@pixelheresy.com) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (212-17-162-67.amt.ax [212.17.162.67]) by mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 05A3682536 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:02:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Keith Gibbs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:02:42 +0300 References: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 355219aa-001c-11ec-9ee7-852f3b802eee Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NZGVjNDY3OGFlNWQwMmExNGU0ZDZk?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTkxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdec4678ae5d02a14e4d6de91:1:e1Gri7kD3KPOI3j_opjm8UvTZBFETlAFsHLuheAJGRQ > On 18. Aug 2021, at 14.28, Lucio De Re wrote: > Let me put it this way: German and Italian motorcycle manufacturers > eventually figured that the gear shift should be on the same side as > Japanese manufacturers preferred. This is my point exactly in one sense. In your example, there were alternat= e designs, and the German and Italian manufacturers conformed to the Japane= se ones not by the Motorcycle Gearshift Foundation (MGF) sounding off on it= or imposing a design for a =E2=80=9COne Motorcycle Gearshift=E2=80=9D [1MG= ] initiative. Instead, the experience of users and/or the better ergonomics= of the design and/or functional logic dictated it was easier to just make = them the same.=20 Thought exercise: Fast forward 5 years from now=E2=80=A6 the NIX project de= livers on a new version of the Plan 9 kernel that is brilliantly optimised = for multicore/multinode distributed computing. Within a few weeks, 9front s= ays, =E2=80=9Cthis is the dopest thing ever=E2=80=9D and folds it into thei= r fork, along with some monkeying they have done to the kernel. Both get a = shot in popularity and draw additional people into the Plan 9 community spa= ce. People develop software with this set of features in mind. Let=E2=80=99s even say that the P9F takes leave of their senses and dictate= s a new Plan 9 from Bell Labs V5, which is basically 9legacy with standard = patches and a version number. Great. Would =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D Plan = 9 want to take in the cool addition to be more compatible with closely rela= ted peers or would people balk about the other distress =E2=80=9Cnot contri= buting to common cross-compatibility=E2=80=9D and come up with it=E2=80=99s= own thing and stick to their own thing. I would venture the former would h= appen for the same reason in your motorcycle example.=20 > What I am proposing is that where some code will run on one flavour of > Plan 9 and not on another, which is annoying, that somebody be > entrusted with the common sense to suggest which of two > implementations should be favoured and for what reasons. In the case of plurality, you have a push and pull, where people may intent= ionally make a departure from compatibility for the sake of bettering thing= s. That is a risk, sure, but that is where you get growth. And if it is the= best, since it is free and open source, the better code can be worked into= sister projects. It=E2=80=99s like when there is a win, everyone can win. = And mind you, most software is more about different tastes, workflows, etc.= and don=E2=80=99t affect capital C =E2=80=9CCompatibility=E2=80=9D. Similarly, a breaking change could be a problem and could even harm a proje= ct in the long term. That is where the risk comes in.=20 > It seems to me that the paranoid individualist assumes malice behind > such an obvious proposal. I=E2=80=99m not sure malice is the right word. It is =E2=80=9Cmotive=E2=80= =9D. It is clear you don=E2=80=99t like 9front as a distribution. That is y= our choice. But this isn=E2=80=99t the first time you have either directly = or indirectly brought up the desire to propose that there should be a singl= e Plan 9 and that what is official is dictated by editorial decision by a g= overning body.=20 We obviously have very different views on top down vs bottom up development= . However, most OSS development comes from a volunteer putting out a pull r= equest that he or she things would make things better or a little standalon= e tool that people could find useful. The absense of authority, even in you= r motorcycle example, is not chaos. We have a community with some very smar= t and talented people.=20 -pixelheresy > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-Mdec46= 78ae5d02a14e4d6de91 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription