Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:

> Then why are you always the focal point
> of flame wars here?

There is a significant difference of opinion about Plan 9 and what it
represent. A considerable number of the Plan 9 community haven't even
twigged to this simple fact, yet.

The only 'flame war' is from you folks. I haven't called -anyone-
anything. I -have- expressed my view on quite a few ideas and suggestions
that have been made. I will continue to do so. I also am a user of this
OS and have a right to express my views. As a developer or distributor you
have a responsibility to listen. If you don't, then expect the market to
move around or over you. There are after all only three choices in -any-
situation. Once the choice is made, the only remaining question is 'How'.

If that upsets you, that says more about you than me.

The fact is there is a contingent of Plan 9 users who want to  expand the
OS and include other OS'es into the mix (want tactless, go back and look
at some of the responces I received when I asked about creating a process
client for Linux or Windows). They believe that it has the potential for
significant social impact across the globe. This is against the wishes of
quite a few on this list, who would rather see it remain their personal
play thing. We sincerely wish that we could get help from these other users,
but -they- are the ones who are failing to compromise in their desires.
They fail to see, and accept, that Plan 9 has flown the coop and it no
longer is in their 'control' (not that it ever really was mind you). They
fail to see the fundamental point to the whole idea of Open Source
technology. The street has its own uses for technology (to borrow from
Gibson). That in fact within 4-5 years it has the potential to
significantly change the landscape, not only in computers but society writ
large. Hangar 18 and Plan 9 represent an opportunity to short circuit a
significant amount of work by large corporations which will deny
individuals their right to manage their own lives (Lucent being one of
them, if it survives it's current troubles).

-That- is truly a lack of tact (and imagination) on their part.

I am faced with two choices. Comply and fail in my goals, or pursue my
goals and deal with the conflict. I choose the latter (see three choices
above).

I have the same problem with Linux users. I've been thrown out of one of
the Linux user groups in Austin because I dared to talk against the
'OS Religous' wars. Bigots abound (most people are, and never know it,
which is probably why they are bigots - see Decarte about questioning
things and having an open mind). I simply wanted to create a SIG that
was focused on computer applications and technology rather than a single
OS. Did I stop? No, I went to another user group (which is why Austin has
four Linux user groups). What happened? We made progress and the Plan 9
community (and Linux, and MS, and etc.) at large will soon reap the
benefits of those efforts (and tenacity). Am I asking you to do it my
way? No, in fact I am building a system that will prevent any one party
from being able to control or dictate the process (ie tit-for-tat). Are
we excluding anyone from participating? No. Are we limiting it to a
single OS? No. The -only- thing we -are- saying is you (3rd person again)
can't tell -us- how to do it either.

Now who is being hard headed and confrontational here?

To you (3rd person unless the shoe fits) it's an ego trip, to  others of
us it's a way of life. We see the transfer of technology to the individual
(as opposed to corporate or government managers) as the -only- way out of
the worlds problems. God Money Fascists will sell your soul for their
profit (see Jefferson comment about British selling bails of hay and
civil rights).

Let your dreams die hard.

As to me being rude to you (3rd person, English sucks!), I guarantee that
it was in responce to -you- being rude or inconsiderate to me first (even
if you don't think so, which is the whole point of manners. I'll leave
the elucidation of that point as an exercise). I never start a fight, I'll
damn well finish it if I have to. I'd rather not have to. I -always- start
out with 'Excuse me', 'Please', 'If you wouldn't mind'. I also -always-
give the other party the option of saying 'No'. And when they do, I drop
it. I'll continue that until I am abused (on my terms, same as you decide
when you are abused on -your- terms). At that point my usual responce is to
go around. I don't have that option here. So, we bash heads.

Ta ta.


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    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

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