From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Jim Choate To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Cc: , Subject: Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard In-Reply-To: <20020930004509.A21938@honk.eecs.harvard.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:41:54 -0500 Topicbox-Message-UUID: f6f9c9a4-eaca-11e9-9e20-41e7f4b1d025 On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote: > Then why are you always the focal point > of flame wars here? There is a significant difference of opinion about Plan 9 and what it represent. A considerable number of the Plan 9 community haven't even twigged to this simple fact, yet. The only 'flame war' is from you folks. I haven't called -anyone- anything. I -have- expressed my view on quite a few ideas and suggestions that have been made. I will continue to do so. I also am a user of this OS and have a right to express my views. As a developer or distributor you have a responsibility to listen. If you don't, then expect the market to move around or over you. There are after all only three choices in -any- situation. Once the choice is made, the only remaining question is 'How'. If that upsets you, that says more about you than me. The fact is there is a contingent of Plan 9 users who want to expand the OS and include other OS'es into the mix (want tactless, go back and look at some of the responces I received when I asked about creating a process client for Linux or Windows). They believe that it has the potential for significant social impact across the globe. This is against the wishes of quite a few on this list, who would rather see it remain their personal play thing. We sincerely wish that we could get help from these other users, but -they- are the ones who are failing to compromise in their desires. They fail to see, and accept, that Plan 9 has flown the coop and it no longer is in their 'control' (not that it ever really was mind you). They fail to see the fundamental point to the whole idea of Open Source technology. The street has its own uses for technology (to borrow from Gibson). That in fact within 4-5 years it has the potential to significantly change the landscape, not only in computers but society writ large. Hangar 18 and Plan 9 represent an opportunity to short circuit a significant amount of work by large corporations which will deny individuals their right to manage their own lives (Lucent being one of them, if it survives it's current troubles). -That- is truly a lack of tact (and imagination) on their part. I am faced with two choices. Comply and fail in my goals, or pursue my goals and deal with the conflict. I choose the latter (see three choices above). I have the same problem with Linux users. I've been thrown out of one of the Linux user groups in Austin because I dared to talk against the 'OS Religous' wars. Bigots abound (most people are, and never know it, which is probably why they are bigots - see Decarte about questioning things and having an open mind). I simply wanted to create a SIG that was focused on computer applications and technology rather than a single OS. Did I stop? No, I went to another user group (which is why Austin has four Linux user groups). What happened? We made progress and the Plan 9 community (and Linux, and MS, and etc.) at large will soon reap the benefits of those efforts (and tenacity). Am I asking you to do it my way? No, in fact I am building a system that will prevent any one party from being able to control or dictate the process (ie tit-for-tat). Are we excluding anyone from participating? No. Are we limiting it to a single OS? No. The -only- thing we -are- saying is you (3rd person again) can't tell -us- how to do it either. Now who is being hard headed and confrontational here? To you (3rd person unless the shoe fits) it's an ego trip, to others of us it's a way of life. We see the transfer of technology to the individual (as opposed to corporate or government managers) as the -only- way out of the worlds problems. God Money Fascists will sell your soul for their profit (see Jefferson comment about British selling bails of hay and civil rights). Let your dreams die hard. As to me being rude to you (3rd person, English sucks!), I guarantee that it was in responce to -you- being rude or inconsiderate to me first (even if you don't think so, which is the whole point of manners. I'll leave the elucidation of that point as an exercise). I never start a fight, I'll damn well finish it if I have to. I'd rather not have to. I -always- start out with 'Excuse me', 'Please', 'If you wouldn't mind'. I also -always- give the other party the option of saying 'No'. And when they do, I drop it. I'll continue that until I am abused (on my terms, same as you decide when you are abused on -your- terms). At that point my usual responce is to go around. I don't have that option here. So, we bash heads. Ta ta. -- ____________________________________________________________________ We don't see things as they are, ravage@ssz.com we see them as we are. www.ssz.com jchoate@open-forge.org Anais Nin www.open-forge.org --------------------------------------------------------------------