[9fans] Re: alef on sources

[9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Matthew Swank]

Well despite dire warning of redundancy, buggyness, and half-bakery, I
will be looking at the Alef sources with some relish.

My thanks goes out to Russ, Bell Labs, etc.

Matt

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[boyd, rounin]

> Well despite dire warning of redundancy, buggyness, and half-bakery, I
> will be looking at the Alef sources with some relish.

methinks that limbo would give a greater payoff.

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Kenji Okamoto]

> methinks that limbo would give a greater payoff.

If it can run on native Plan 9.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 27 May 2004, boyd, rounin wrote:

> > Well despite dire warning of redundancy, buggyness, and half-bakery, I
> > will be looking at the Alef sources with some relish.
>
> methinks that limbo would give a greater payoff.


yesh. This kind of reminds me of porting Plan 9 to dead things like the
SPARC, except that it's a port a a dead thing to a live system.

We need to get the live + live thing going somehow.

ron
p.s. BTW: I just booted Plan 9 under Xen far enough to have it instantly
kill itself (voluntarily). This is progress. No, really, I mean it ;-)

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[Russ Cox]

> p.s. BTW: I just booted Plan 9 under Xen far enough to have it instantly
> kill itself (voluntarily). This is progress. No, really, I mean it ;-)

presumably this is without graphics?

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 10:21:26PM -0600, ron minnich wrote:
>
> yesh. This kind of reminds me of porting Plan 9 to dead things like the
> SPARC, except that it's a port a a dead thing to a live system.

yeah. i was going to pick up the port to SPARC, but
it's really a waste of time. aside from amd64 and ia64,
the only other viable 64-bit platform is powerpc, as
far as i can tell. amd64 is not all that attractive to
me any more because of the intel ISA and the lack of gp
registers. i don't know enough about ia64.

there's nothing wrong with ports to 32-bit archs. i
just have interest in the 64-bit archs.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[George Michaelson]

On Wed, 26 May 2004 23:39:59 -0500 Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:

>> p.s. BTW: I just booted Plan 9 under Xen far enough to have it instantly
>> kill itself (voluntarily). This is progress. No, really, I mean it ;-)

fab! can't wait.

>
>presumably this is without graphics?

why? if xen provides a simple VGA, surely this can be with grafix?

the problem for most of us thick-o's is that we stupidly went and bought
shiny new laptops with Radeon 9000 and other sick/mad/bad chipsets, rather
than finding a gas-plasma tadpole with contents-addressable 3 bit colour.

(ie, xen either emulates the kind of braindead vga plan9 likes, or almost
 no other OS will install on it.)

-george

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[Russ Cox]

> >presumably this is without graphics?
>
> why? if xen provides a simple VGA, surely this can be with grafix?

my understanding is that xen, in contrast to vmware,
does not virtualize the vga display.  each guest operating system
has to know how to drive it.  so it's not helpful for the
"avoid hacking aux/vga" problem.

russ

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[George Michaelson]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 00:33:01 -0500 Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >presumably this is without graphics?
>>
>> why? if xen provides a simple VGA, surely this can be with grafix?
>
>my understanding is that xen, in contrast to vmware,
>does not virtualize the vga display.  each guest operating system
>has to know how to drive it.  so it's not helpful for the
>"avoid hacking aux/vga" problem.
>
>russ

sigh. ok. ggm goes back to sleep.

ta.

-george

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[C H Forsyth]

>>far as i can tell. amd64 is not all that attractive to
>>me any more because of the intel ISA and the lack of gp
>>registers.

to be fair, there are a few more registers in the AMD64, R8 to R15 i think, with vaguely
general application, although some of the old register restrictions apply.
there is also a more conventional model for floating-point.  best of all,
new prefix bytes allow you to end up with magnificent 15-byte instructions!  such magic!
no other architecture is like it.

i look forward to having my loft warm in winter.

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Bruce Ellis]

umm, check out a mips. 4700, 7000, and the 5900
in the ps2 is 128 bit - go for it.

brucee

Christopher Nielsen wrote:

> On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 10:21:26PM -0600, ron minnich wrote:
>
> aside from amd64 and ia64,
> the only other viable 64-bit platform is powerpc, as
> far as i can tell. amd64 is not all that attractive to
> me any more because of the intel ISA and the lack of gp
> registers. i don't know enough about ia64.
>
> there's nothing wrong with ports to 32-bit archs. i
> just have interest in the 64-bit archs.

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Bruce Ellis]

pretty much right.  if you have any more questions about
the AMD64 then private mail is fine - i know it a bit.

hey - how's the new 8c?  i've gone a bit nutty on the
32 bit stuff that wasn't optimized very well (mul, div).

release next rainy day.

brucee

C H Forsyth wrote:

>>>far as i can tell. amd64 is not all that attractive to
>>>me any more because of the intel ISA and the lack of gp
>>>registers.
>
> to be fair, there are a few more registers in the AMD64, R8 to R15 i think, with vaguely
> general application, although some of the old register restrictions apply.
> there is also a more conventional model for floating-point.  best of all,
> new prefix bytes allow you to end up with magnificent 15-byte instructions!  such magic!
> no other architecture is like it.
>
> i look forward to having my loft warm in winter.

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 26 May 2004, Russ Cox wrote:

> > p.s. BTW: I just booted Plan 9 under Xen far enough to have it instantly
> > kill itself (voluntarily). This is progress. No, really, I mean it ;-)
>
> presumably this is without graphics?


sure, that comes later.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 26 May 2004, Christopher Nielsen wrote:

> yeah. i was going to pick up the port to SPARC, but it's really a waste
> of time. aside from amd64 and ia64, the only other viable 64-bit
> platform is powerpc, as far as i can tell. amd64 is not all that
> attractive to me any more because of the intel ISA and the lack of gp
> registers. i don't know enough about ia64.

You want to get into a machine with a future, do k8 or 970. The vendors
I'm talking to don't seem to think highly of ia64's prospects.

ron

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 27 May 2004, George Michaelson wrote:

> On Wed, 26 May 2004 23:39:59 -0500 Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
> >presumably this is without graphics?
>
> why? if xen provides a simple VGA, surely this can be with grafix?

they're "working the problem"

ron

Re: [9fans] plan9 on xen

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 27 May 2004, Russ Cox wrote:

> > >presumably this is without graphics?
> >
> > why? if xen provides a simple VGA, surely this can be with grafix?
>
> my understanding is that xen, in contrast to vmware,
> does not virtualize the vga display.  each guest operating system
> has to know how to drive it.  so it's not helpful for the
> "avoid hacking aux/vga" problem.

sure. the only mistake one could make is to assume that the current state
of things is the permanent state.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Latchesar Ionkov]

On Thu, May 27, 2004 at 11:20:19AM +0900, Kenji Okamoto said:
> > methinks that limbo would give a greater payoff.
>
> If it can run on native Plan 9.???

It can. I can run sh.dis, some of the cmd/*.dis that i tested, wm/tetris.dis
and wm/coffee.dis, in the native dis port that I am working on.

There is still a lot of work to be done before the port reaches "somewhat
working" state though: the prog filesystem implementation has to be finishedxcy,
lib/wm*.b rewritten to support rio, I didn't test the networking yet ...

Thanks,
	Lucho

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Thu, May 27, 2004 at 08:15:11PM +1000, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> umm, check out a mips. 4700, 7000, and the 5900
> in the ps2 is 128 bit - go for it.

that sounds interesting. i'll have a look.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Kenji Okamoto]

> It can. I can run sh.dis, some of the cmd/*.dis that i tested, wm/tetris.dis
> and wm/coffee.dis, in the native dis port that I am working on.

Interesting.  I hope you'll get good success.

Yesterday, I showed tetris running on Plan 9 version of inferno to our students.

I told them "Do you know who wrote tetris?"
One replied "someone American?".
I said "No, Russian" (Is it right?)
Then, he said he must be a most talented genius!
I replied I think so, too.
Then, he asked me "Did he get plenty of money?"
I replied, "Probably he must be cheated by someone bad from Western,
and someone else might have got lots of memony"

Am I biased wrong direction?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[dvd]

> I told them "Do you know who wrote tetris?"
> One replied "someone American?".
> I said "No, Russian" (Is it right?)

Yes, Alexey Pazhitnov from the Russian Academy of Sciences (then the Soviet Union)
> Then, he said he must be a most talented genius!
> I replied I think so, too.

He is a smart guy. He works for Microsoft since late nineties and has led
the developement of Pandora's Box.

> Then, he asked me "Did he get plenty of money?"
> I replied, "Probably he must be cheated by someone bad from Western,
> and someone else might have got lots of memony"

>From Tetris, nothing. A british businessman Robert Stein had cheated
him and sold right to Tetris to Robert Maxwell (that one) without any
participation of Pazhitnov in the deal. Then another company (one
that makes (made?) Nintendo game boxes) acquired rights for all
but PC platforms of Tetris and made huge money too.
Also without Pazhitnov.

>
> Am I biased wrong direction?

Strictly speaking, it is not because Pazhitnov could not defend his rights
but because he did not quiet understand he had any rights. It was a different
mentality at the time of USSR.

David

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Joel Salomon]

> I told them "Do you know who wrote tetris?"
> One replied "someone American?".
> I said "No, Russian" (Is it right?)
>
Popular theory (well, my own half-baked one anyway...):
Tetris was a soviet/communist plot to distract all capitalists from the
work they were supposed to be doing. ;-)

No native p9 port yet, is there. Hmmm...

--Joel

RE: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Nigel Roles]

9fans-bounces+ngr=9fs.org@cse.psu.edu wrote:
>> I told them "Do you know who wrote tetris?"
>> One replied "someone American?".
>> I said "No, Russian" (Is it right?)
>>
> Popular theory (well, my own half-baked one anyway...):
> Tetris was a soviet/communist plot to distract all capitalists from
> the work they were supposed to be doing. ;-)
>
> No native p9 port yet, is there. Hmmm...
>
> --Joel

Well, 3rd edition had games/4s and games/5s. 5s looked an awful lot
like Tetris to me.

RE: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[lucio]

> Well, 3rd edition had games/4s and games/5s. 5s looked an awful lot
> like Tetris to me.

Surely it was tetris from the Greek tetra (or whatever) meaning four?
4s would make more sense, then, wouldn't it?

Also, it's high time the 2e time wasters got resurrected.  Otherwise
they are also going to be lost (no matter what the dump is capable
of).  At least we can ask that the 4e licence be extended to them.

++L

RE: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Nigel Roles]

9fans-bounces+ngr=9fs.org@cse.psu.edu wrote:
>> Well, 3rd edition had games/4s and games/5s. 5s looked an awful lot
>> like Tetris to me.
>
> Surely it was tetris from the Greek tetra (or whatever) meaning four?
> 4s would make more sense, then, wouldn't it?
>

Good point. It's too early in the morning to count.

> Also, it's high time the 2e time wasters got resurrected.  Otherwise
> they are also going to be lost (no matter what the dump is capable
> of).  At least we can ask that the 4e licence be extended to them.
>
> ++L

Out by one again am I? 2nd edition it is.

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> Am I biased wrong direction?

Probably.  As I recall, when Tetris was first introduced
the inventor was featured prominently in the advertisements.
One assumes that he was paid a fee and/or royalties.

Re: [9fans] Re: alef on sources

[Joel Salomon]

Douglas A. Gwyn said:
> Kenji Okamoto wrote:
>> Am I biased wrong direction?
>
> Probably.  As I recall, when Tetris was first introduced
> the inventor was featured prominently in the advertisements.
> One assumes that he was paid a fee and/or royalties.
>
>From Tetris: a history http://www.atarihq.com/tsr/special/tetrishist.html :

> Alexey Pazhitnov made nearly no money from Tetris itself. ELORG made, then
> cancelled a deal that would have given him merchandising rights to Tetris.
> Still, Pazhitnov was happy that the game he created became famous
> world-wide, and he did get an 286-clone from the Academy as a reward; he
> also had a much nicer apartment than most of his colleagues.

--Joel