Looking forward to how everything plays out and thanks to everyone= who's been keeping Plan 9 rolling over the years.

- David Leimbach

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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de"; helo=oat.nine.sirjofri.de; client-ip=5.45.105.127 Received: from oat.nine.sirjofri.de (oat.nine.sirjofri.de [5.45.105.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 13:03:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de) Received: from sirjofri.de ([188.103.44.144]) by oat; Thu Apr 1 19:03:06 +0200 2021 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 17:03:05 +0000 (UTC) From: sirjofri To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <16172946980.cd0F9b.53019@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16172946980.cd0F9b.53019@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 2b502bfe-930c-11eb-ad23-d8829834dddf Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NMjhlNzFmMjUxYmRhMTllNmU4Mzcx?= =?UTF-8?B?MzBhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M28e71f251bda19e6e837130a:1:2dELGb0o5AoJPJGZrDDZy4nzeb3Iz6hNgfD2b5vUqCE 01.04.2021 18:31:38 leimy2k via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > What's the recommended way to participate in the foundation's community=20 > for new releases? > > I've been very interested in trying out the various Plan 9 forks these=20 > days, and I see that the foundation page actively links to 9legacy. Is=20 > that the official fork of the foundation going forward? > > There's been a bit of drift between the forks, down to the fields of=20 > the Srv struct which might make it trickier to port some of the good=20 > work being done between forks. > > Sorry if this has been covered in some other way! > > Looking forward to how everything plays out and thanks to everyone=20 > who's been keeping Plan 9 rolling over the years. I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4e=20 release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which is 4e=20 plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9front,=20 which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but maybe also=20 the system which supports most hardware, maybe. sirjofri ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M28e71= f251bda19e6e837130a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28400 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2021 04:20:37 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Apr 2021 04:20:37 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EC21B9BB for ; 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Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:20:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:534f:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 21:20:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <16172946980.cd0F9b.53019@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Lucio De Re Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 06:20:18 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: bfc890ec-936a-11eb-b8a0-c662d4adf445 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NYzJjMTdhMzQ1NGJlNGI0OTEyNTE1?= =?UTF-8?B?Mzc5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc2c17a3454be4b4912515379:1:BCJo-YtSDrsDUVXdmK7tewek4e0Dl0rsdnHKSdGq9bA I need time to assimilate mindset changing concepts, I should not respond as quickly as I am doing here, so please understand that nothing below is intended to offend anyone, it is more a totally subjective and poorly formulated knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly a critical event in Plan 9's existence. On 4/1/21, sirjofri wrote: > I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4e > release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which is 4e > plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9front, > which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but maybe also > the system which supports most hardware, maybe. > I had a brief exchange with Cinap quite a long time ago and whereas I make no claim to follow the Bell Labs philosophy particularly closely, I figured that the divergence between BL and 9front had sort of solidified with the introduction of Go. Or perhaps those were just symptoms and the core philosophies had a nature of their own. Cinap may well recall this exchange. The bottom line as I see it, is that whereas 9legacy and what I call 9miller attempt to follow a conservative path, 9front has taken a path of its own and only fragments of Cinap's efforts (without for a moment disparaging all other 9front contributors) can be assimilated into Plan 9 without some shift in philosophy. I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an historical fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed at a philosophical level and the two forks be reconciled as far as possible. But a compromise position needs to take into account the viability of Plan 9 as something different from being merely a research OS (which I think has been more or less exhausted). Agreeing on a new role (perhaps precisely as a target for contributions by a community with a different mindset) for a shared product will help attaining such an objective. That two different paths may need to be followed to arrive there seems inevitable, but officially cooperating along those two paths would save a lot of redundancy and reduce the risk of further divergence. We need to talk, seriously, about where we're going. The risk that the Plan 9 Foundation may successfully dominate the Plan 9 landscape and totally alienate the 9front contributors quite frankly horrifies me. There, it's been said. This seems to be the place, at least for now, where my fears will be allayed or solidified. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Mc2c17= a3454be4b4912515379 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3835 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2021 05:25:50 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Apr 2021 05:25:50 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7EA2AC0B for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 01:25:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mM72dfa21c3a33bccd6db3fc64.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 7A53D3823700; 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In-Reply-To: From: "Devon H. O'Dell" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 22:25:26 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: df3c0fae-9373-11eb-8512-e8ab496c8ec0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNzJkZmEyMWMzYTMzYmNjZDZkYjNm?= =?UTF-8?B?YzY0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M72dfa21c3a33bccd6db3fc64:1:2XyaSmi2cRkLgoPw2VwMgfVG-iTvszANExqDB-cdXjE I've been pretty silent on the list for years, and I hope that as a former collaborator on foundation efforts and former Plan 9 GSoC co-admin and mentor, and assurance that my silence hasn't been ignorance, that my opinion still has weight with folks in p9f. I have to admit a bit of surprise that the foundation will accept GSoC projects for 9front without linking 9front on its page. Additionally, the about page doesn't describe any of the 9front efforts. While I have not been a fan of some interactions between 9fans and 9front over the years, these politics seem largely antiquated, and my impression is that the 9front community "political jokes" are (at least in the past 5 years) much less acerbic, if present at all. The system itself is the most active in the community, with bugfixes, new hardware support, and new (purist-compatible) features not present in any other "fork". I'm not a fan of what's starting to look like some weird form of historical revisionism. Functionality-wise, 9front is tip-of-tree. Realistically, 9front is tip-of-tree. This is the third or fourth thread asking why 9front has no mention on p9f.org. Why does 9front have no mention on p9f.org? Unlike Lucio, I have no desire to encourage nor coordinate consolidation of forks. I don't think that's necessary. The ecosystem is fractured, and has been for nearly 2 decades. I don't think that's a problem. We can admit that we're a fractured ecosystem, and embrace that. P9f seems to do that by accepting funds for GSoC contributions to 9front, without any acknowledgement of 9front's presence outside of soliciting project ideas. Without assigning malice or blame, this is not correct. It should be easy to see how this is politically problematic. Kind regards, --dho On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 9:21 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > > I need time to assimilate mindset changing concepts, I should not > respond as quickly as I am doing here, so please understand that > nothing below is intended to offend anyone, it is more a totally > subjective and poorly formulated knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly > a critical event in Plan 9's existence. > > On 4/1/21, sirjofri wrote: > > I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4e > > release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which is 4e > > plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9front, > > which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but maybe also > > the system which supports most hardware, maybe. > > > I had a brief exchange with Cinap quite a long time ago and whereas I > make no claim to follow the Bell Labs philosophy particularly closely, > I figured that the divergence between BL and 9front had sort of > solidified with the introduction of Go. Or perhaps those were just > symptoms and the core philosophies had a nature of their own. Cinap > may well recall this exchange. >=20 > The bottom line as I see it, is that whereas 9legacy and what I call > 9miller attempt to follow a conservative path, 9front has taken a path > of its own and only fragments of Cinap's efforts (without for a moment > disparaging all other 9front contributors) can be assimilated into > Plan 9 without some shift in philosophy. >=20 > I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an historical > fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed > at a philosophical level and the two forks be reconciled as far as > possible. But a compromise position needs to take into account the > viability of Plan 9 as something different from being merely a > research OS (which I think has been more or less exhausted). >=20 > Agreeing on a new role (perhaps precisely as a target for > contributions by a community with a different mindset) for a shared > product will help attaining such an objective. That two different > paths may need to be followed to arrive there seems inevitable, but > officially cooperating along those two paths would save a lot of > redundancy and reduce the risk of further divergence. >=20 > We need to talk, seriously, about where we're going. The risk that the > Plan 9 Foundation may successfully dominate the Plan 9 landscape and > totally alienate the 9front contributors quite frankly horrifies me. >=20 > There, it's been said. This seems to be the place, at least for now, > where my fears will be allayed or solidified. >=20 > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M72dfa= 21c3a33bccd6db3fc64 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 25045 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2021 08:35:06 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Apr 2021 08:35:06 -0000 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C62C6A6 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 04:35:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mM2cde896c9ab7e2c8c3fd5469.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 7AF8320D5D79; 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Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 17:34:29 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4d07083a-938e-11eb-821c-84869c59bf54 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NMmNkZTg5NmM5YWI3ZTJjOGMzZmQ1?= =?UTF-8?B?NDY5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M2cde896c9ab7e2c8c3fd5469:1:M3PCeVkOz0bJwCrjQgxmQ7OBDSs6DzqginSHFC_8-Hg Hello all, My question is, "Where can we find the official Plan 9 Foundation's main br= anch so folks can get start sending pull requests?" It would be nice to se= e the community members collaborate toward a 5th edition.=20=20 Thanks, Vic ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M2cde8= 96c9ab7e2c8c3fd5469 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5562 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2021 15:06:46 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Apr 2021 15:06:46 -0000 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB4625034 for ; 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In-Reply-To: From: "Devon H. O'Dell" Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 08:06:17 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041f8ad05befeb125" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0422cd66-93c5-11eb-aea5-bd7f6b480238 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNzMwN2Q1NTViNmI0MDRjMzFiMmM4?= =?UTF-8?B?YWI0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7307d555b6b404c31b2c8ab4:1:ouDyd9ojEDkt-ag5PY-jeDDbk-_mun15PQEzm2ARKag --00000000000041f8ad05befeb125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was unnecessarily complain-y and overly political. "It would be nice for p9f.org to also link 9front" is all I really meant here. I'm sorry for this message, and appreciate that p9f is both nascent and nobody's actual job. Kind regards, --dho On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 22:25 Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > I've been pretty silent on the list for years, and I hope that as a > former collaborator on foundation efforts and former Plan 9 GSoC > co-admin and mentor, and assurance that my silence hasn't been > ignorance, that my opinion still has weight with folks in p9f. > > I have to admit a bit of surprise that the foundation will accept GSoC > projects for 9front without linking 9front on its page. Additionally, > the about page doesn't describe any of the 9front efforts. While I > have not been a fan of some interactions between 9fans and 9front over > the years, these politics seem largely antiquated, and my impression > is that the 9front community "political jokes" are (at least in the > past 5 years) much less acerbic, if present at all. The system itself > is the most active in the community, with bugfixes, new hardware > support, and new (purist-compatible) features not present in any other > "fork". > > I'm not a fan of what's starting to look like some weird form of > historical revisionism. Functionality-wise, 9front is tip-of-tree. > Realistically, 9front is tip-of-tree. This is the third or fourth > thread asking why 9front has no mention on p9f.org. Why does 9front > have no mention on p9f.org? > > Unlike Lucio, I have no desire to encourage nor coordinate > consolidation of forks. I don't think that's necessary. The ecosystem > is fractured, and has been for nearly 2 decades. I don't think that's > a problem. We can admit that we're a fractured ecosystem, and embrace > that. P9f seems to do that by accepting funds for GSoC contributions > to 9front, without any acknowledgement of 9front's presence outside of > soliciting project ideas. Without assigning malice or blame, this is > not correct. It should be easy to see how this is politically > problematic. > > Kind regards, > > --dho > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 9:21 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > > > > I need time to assimilate mindset changing concepts, I should not > > respond as quickly as I am doing here, so please understand that > > nothing below is intended to offend anyone, it is more a totally > > subjective and poorly formulated knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly > > a critical event in Plan 9's existence. > > > > On 4/1/21, sirjofri wrote: > > > I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4e > > > release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which is 4e > > > plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9front, > > > which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but maybe > also > > > the system which supports most hardware, maybe. > > > > > I had a brief exchange with Cinap quite a long time ago and whereas I > > make no claim to follow the Bell Labs philosophy particularly closely, > > I figured that the divergence between BL and 9front had sort of > > solidified with the introduction of Go. Or perhaps those were just > > symptoms and the core philosophies had a nature of their own. Cinap > > may well recall this exchange. > > > > The bottom line as I see it, is that whereas 9legacy and what I call > > 9miller attempt to follow a conservative path, 9front has taken a path > > of its own and only fragments of Cinap's efforts (without for a moment > > disparaging all other 9front contributors) can be assimilated into > > Plan 9 without some shift in philosophy. > > > > I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an historical > > fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed > > at a philosophical level and the two forks be reconciled as far as > > possible. But a compromise position needs to take into account the > > viability of Plan 9 as something different from being merely a > > research OS (which I think has been more or less exhausted). > > > > Agreeing on a new role (perhaps precisely as a target for > > contributions by a community with a different mindset) for a shared > > product will help attaining such an objective. That two different > > paths may need to be followed to arrive there seems inevitable, but > > officially cooperating along those two paths would save a lot of > > redundancy and reduce the risk of further divergence. > > > > We need to talk, seriously, about where we're going. The risk that the > > Plan 9 Foundation may successfully dominate the Plan 9 landscape and > > totally alienate the 9front contributors quite frankly horrifies me. > > > > There, it's been said. This seems to be the place, at least for now, > > where my fears will be allayed or solidified. > > > > Lucio. > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > 9fans: 9fans > > Permalink: > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Mc2c17a3454be4b= 4912515379 > > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M7307d= 555b6b404c31b2c8ab4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000041f8ad05befeb125 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This was unnecessarily complain-y and overly = political. "It would be nice for p9f.org to also link 9front" is all I really meant here. I'm sorry for t= his message, and appreciate that p9f is both nascent and nobody's actua= l job.

Kind regards,

--dho

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 22:25 Devon H. O'Dell <devon.odell@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been pretty silent on the list for years, = and I hope that as a
former collaborator on foundation efforts and former Plan 9 GSoC
co-admin and mentor, and assurance that my silence hasn't been
ignorance, that my opinion still has weight with folks in p9f.

I have to admit a bit of surprise that the foundation will accept GSoC
projects for 9front without linking 9front on its page. Additionally,
the about page doesn't describe any of the 9front efforts. While I
have not been a fan of some interactions between 9fans and 9front over
the years, these politics seem largely antiquated, and my impression
is that the 9front community "political jokes" are (at least in t= he
past 5 years) much less acerbic, if present at all. The system itself
is the most active in the community, with bugfixes, new hardware
support, and new (purist-compatible) features not present in any other
"fork".

I'm not a fan of what's starting to look like some weird form of historical revisionism. Functionality-wise, 9front is tip-of-tree.
Realistically, 9front is tip-of-tree. This is the third or fourth
thread asking why 9front has no mention on p9f.org. Why does 9front
have no mention on p9f.org?

Unlike Lucio, I have no desire to encourage nor coordinate
consolidation of forks. I don't think that's necessary. The ecosyst= em
is fractured, and has been for nearly 2 decades. I don't think that'= ;s
a problem. We can admit that we're a fractured ecosystem, and embrace that. P9f seems to do that by accepting funds for GSoC contributions
to 9front, without any acknowledgement of 9front's presence outside of<= br /> soliciting project ideas. Without assigning malice or blame, this is
not correct. It should be easy to see how this is politically
problematic.

Kind regards,

--dho

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 9:21 PM Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I need time to assimilate mindset changing concepts, I should not
> respond as quickly as I am doing here, so please understand that
> nothing below is intended to offend anyone, it is more a totally
> subjective and poorly formulated knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly=
> a critical event in Plan 9's existence.
>
> On 4/1/21, sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:
> > I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4= e
> > release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which = is 4e
> > plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9fr= ont,
> > which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but may= be also
> > the system which supports most hardware, maybe.
> >
> I had a brief exchange with Cinap quite a long time ago and whereas I<= br /> > make no claim to follow the Bell Labs philosophy particularly closely,=
> I figured that the divergence between BL and 9front had sort of
> solidified with the introduction of Go. Or perhaps those were just
> symptoms and the core philosophies had a nature of their own. Cinap > may well recall this exchange.
>
> The bottom line as I see it, is that whereas 9legacy and what I call > 9miller attempt to follow a conservative path, 9front has taken a path=
> of its own and only fragments of Cinap's efforts (without for a mo= ment
> disparaging all other 9front contributors) can be assimilated into
> Plan 9 without some shift in philosophy.
>
> I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an = historical
> fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed<= br /> > at a philosophical level and the two forks be reconciled as far as
> possible. But a compromise position needs to take into account the
> viability of Plan 9 as something different from being merely a
> research OS (which I think has been more or less exhausted).
>
> Agreeing on a new role (perhaps precisely as a target for
> contributions by a community with a different mindset) for a shared > product will help attaining such an objective. That two different
> paths may need to be followed to arrive there seems inevitable, but > officially cooperating along those two paths would save a lot of
> redundancy and reduce the risk of further divergence.
>
> We need to talk, seriously, about where we're going. The risk that= the
> Plan 9 Foundation may successfully dominate the Plan 9 landscape and > totally alienate the 9front contributors quite frankly horrifies me. >
> There, it's been said. This seems to be the place, at least for no= w,
> where my fears will be allayed or solidified.
>
> Lucio.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: h= ttps://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Mc2c17a3454be4b491= 2515379
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.co= m/groups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery o= ptions Permalink

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From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 18:53:54 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 06637d28-93d4-11eb-ae85-9e88fe8e840b Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NODhjM2Q0YTI3MzZlZTIxNzYxYTU3?= =?UTF-8?B?NDM0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M88c3d4a2736ee21761a57434:1:iyN4oUmg2ibnfPhZXvCwnD3KDLvpdKe_PMf-8DmJOE4 is the p9f website not a wiki? trying to fix this i managed to 9p mount something, but didn't find the index page... whoever added the miller and 9legacy links might be able to help us out? On 4/2/21, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > This was unnecessarily complain-y and overly political. "It would be nice > for p9f.org to also link 9front" is all I really meant here. I'm sorry for > this message, and appreciate that p9f is both nascent and nobody's actual > job. > > Kind regards, > > --dho > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 22:25 Devon H. O'Dell wrot= e: > >> I've been pretty silent on the list for years, and I hope that as a >> former collaborator on foundation efforts and former Plan 9 GSoC >> co-admin and mentor, and assurance that my silence hasn't been >> ignorance, that my opinion still has weight with folks in p9f. >> >> I have to admit a bit of surprise that the foundation will accept GSoC >> projects for 9front without linking 9front on its page. Additionally, >> the about page doesn't describe any of the 9front efforts. While I >> have not been a fan of some interactions between 9fans and 9front over >> the years, these politics seem largely antiquated, and my impression >> is that the 9front community "political jokes" are (at least in the >> past 5 years) much less acerbic, if present at all. The system itself >> is the most active in the community, with bugfixes, new hardware >> support, and new (purist-compatible) features not present in any other >> "fork". >> >> I'm not a fan of what's starting to look like some weird form of >> historical revisionism. Functionality-wise, 9front is tip-of-tree. >> Realistically, 9front is tip-of-tree. This is the third or fourth >> thread asking why 9front has no mention on p9f.org. Why does 9front >> have no mention on p9f.org? >> >> Unlike Lucio, I have no desire to encourage nor coordinate >> consolidation of forks. I don't think that's necessary. The ecosystem >> is fractured, and has been for nearly 2 decades. I don't think that's >> a problem. We can admit that we're a fractured ecosystem, and embrace >> that. P9f seems to do that by accepting funds for GSoC contributions >> to 9front, without any acknowledgement of 9front's presence outside of >> soliciting project ideas. Without assigning malice or blame, this is >> not correct. It should be easy to see how this is politically >> problematic. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> --dho >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 9:21 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >> > >> > I need time to assimilate mindset changing concepts, I should not >> > respond as quickly as I am doing here, so please understand that >> > nothing below is intended to offend anyone, it is more a totally >> > subjective and poorly formulated knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly >> > a critical event in Plan 9's existence. >> > >> > On 4/1/21, sirjofri wrote: >> > > I know only 4 currently active Plan 9 systems. (1) The official 4e >> > > release, which is ... well it works, I guess. (2) 9legacy, which is >> > > 4e >> > > plus patches (fixes and modern stuff). (3) the RPi forks. (4) 9front, >> > > which might be the biggest and the farthest away from 4e, but maybe >> also >> > > the system which supports most hardware, maybe. >> > > >> > I had a brief exchange with Cinap quite a long time ago and whereas I >> > make no claim to follow the Bell Labs philosophy particularly closely, >> > I figured that the divergence between BL and 9front had sort of >> > solidified with the introduction of Go. Or perhaps those were just >> > symptoms and the core philosophies had a nature of their own. Cinap >> > may well recall this exchange. >> > >> > The bottom line as I see it, is that whereas 9legacy and what I call >> > 9miller attempt to follow a conservative path, 9front has taken a path >> > of its own and only fragments of Cinap's efforts (without for a moment >> > disparaging all other 9front contributors) can be assimilated into >> > Plan 9 without some shift in philosophy. >> > >> > I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an historical >> > fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed >> > at a philosophical level and the two forks be reconciled as far as >> > possible. But a compromise position needs to take into account the >> > viability of Plan 9 as something different from being merely a >> > research OS (which I think has been more or less exhausted). >> > >> > Agreeing on a new role (perhaps precisely as a target for >> > contributions by a community with a different mindset) for a shared >> > product will help attaining such an objective. That two different >> > paths may need to be followed to arrive there seems inevitable, but >> > officially cooperating along those two paths would save a lot of >> > redundancy and reduce the risk of further divergence. >> > >> > We need to talk, seriously, about where we're going. The risk that the >> > Plan 9 Foundation may successfully dominate the Plan 9 landscape and >> > totally alienate the 9front contributors quite frankly horrifies me. >> > >> > There, it's been said. This seems to be the place, at least for now, >> > where my fears will be allayed or solidified. >> > >> > Lucio. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------ >> > 9fans: 9fans >> > Permalink: >> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Mc2c17a3454be4= b4912515379 >> > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M88c3d= 4a2736ee21761a57434 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6867 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2021 15:29:12 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 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Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 16:27:29 +0100 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4997b38a-9491-11eb-9dd6-83d3386d5a65 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NMDE1M2E3OTkyNTc2NGI5NzU0NDk1?= =?UTF-8?B?YWRhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0153a79925764b9754495ada:1:wN0H-xUSmIoc7SSLAnyfq_QI7gDQjDtg1iLSqbcj9KI On Fri, Apr 2, 2021, at 5:20 AM, Lucio De Re wrote: > I think that the "purity" (imaginary as it may be, it is an historical > fact) of BL Plan 9 and the practicality of 9front should be discussed > at a philosophical level=20 To toss in my bit (although it's really more anecdote than philosophy): Yea= rs ago, I recall a strong devotion to purity of concept amongst core 9front= developers. They didn't want to make changes for change's sake. I'm still = amused/confused that 9fans at that time started accusing 9front of exactly = what they weren't doing: making changes for change's sake! ;) But in the ye= ars since then, some small non-fix changes have been made. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M0153a= 79925764b9754495ada Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7740 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2021 15:37:30 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Apr 2021 15:37:30 -0000 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF521C6EA for ; 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From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:37:10 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 79e52436-9492-11eb-9f62-cbd0aa4724dc Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNDY3NWEzOThiM2VjNWQ3MDcwZWFk?= =?UTF-8?B?YjVkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M4675a398b3ec5d7070eadb5d:1:fE-D7O6e129XUX9pql1BGvnr3k2LET5xtT_OZt6q4jQ > But in the years since then, some small non-fix changes have been made. and many many many more fixes and hardware support changes (mostly additions) have been made :P ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M4675a= 398b3ec5d7070eadb5d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7989 invoked from network); 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From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:39:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ce4ab0a4-9492-11eb-b08f-eb801fe5ca0f Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNjk3NDRkYjkzNDE3OWNjYjI4NjVm?= =?UTF-8?B?MTczPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M69744db934179ccb2865f173:1:_OTHz2FltzDNgP70tknSF9VrL9XNJpo3uLbNRMDtVSo btw everybody, remember how labs people added a syscall just for go? and how that breaks compatibility for everybody? 9front didn't like it. but I guess we prefer to stay as compatible as feasible in addition to trying to prevent scenarios like these forced upon us (by labs, ironic eh?) ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M69744= db934179ccb2865f173 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8895 invoked from network); 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="k@pixelheresy.com"; helo=mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de; client-ip=5.45.100.188 Received: from mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de [5.45.100.188]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 11:47:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from k@pixelheresy.com) Received: from localhost (82-199-172-216.bredband.aland.net [82.199.172.216]) by mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08A9D8122E for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 18:47:26 +0300 From: Keith Gibbs To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question Message-ID: <20210403154726.pr6e7ya7y2j2gyh4@azoth.pixelheresy.com> References: <16172946980.cd0F9b.53019@composer.9fans.topicbox.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: eb4670de-9493-11eb-b2e6-ce6ca20f8761 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NYTNkZjRlNWZlM2IwZWNmYjZjMDlk?= =?UTF-8?B?MWY0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Ma3df4e5fe3b0ecfb6c09d1f4:1:u4D86D5ofRhhvXBdpb9_HZ0_QwUh03_N0I09ZK-SiEs It's almost as if the accusations that 9front in some way undermines the co= re philosophies of Plan 9 are not motivated by facts, but more invented in the minds of people who just don't like 9front people being in charge of 9front. Almost... -pixelheresy On 21/04/03 05:39PM, hiro wrote: > btw everybody, remember how labs people added a syscall just for go? > and how that breaks compatibility for everybody? > 9front didn't like it. but I guess we prefer to stay as compatible as > feasible in addition to trying to prevent scenarios like these forced > upon us (by labs, ironic eh?) ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Ma3df4= e5fe3b0ecfb6c09d1f4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 25606 invoked from network); 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<20210403154726.pr6e7ya7y2j2gyh4@azoth.pixelheresy.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:17:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: e6067168-94a8-11eb-886b-e8f3fdc13f5f Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NM2ZmMTE4MDg5ZTkzODU5YTdiNGZl?= =?UTF-8?B?NDJhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M3ff118089e93859a7b4fe42a:1:M0wPdgN-qL95XQrn3M41rjnFQ7ZD7p6pOj4iGtglaA0 nobody is in charge. maybe that's what is so horrifying ;) ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M3ff11= 8089e93859a7b4fe42a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18763 invoked from network); 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<20210403154726.pr6e7ya7y2j2gyh4@azoth.pixelheresy.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 12:43:27 +0100 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 374417f4-9604-11eb-9506-a40b7aa1834e Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNmRhYWU4MjBjNDE1NTU0OWM2NWM1?= =?UTF-8?B?NzA5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M6daae820c4155549c65c5709:1:xDX5tVEvSmDY4DJsIHOB1o42BWVOfSnAc2bzYlFyfbU On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Keith Gibbs wrote: > It's almost as if the accusations that 9front in some way undermines the = core > philosophies of Plan 9 are not motivated by facts,=20 There was a lot of grumpiness around when that accusation got started. > On 21/04/03 05:39PM, hiro wrote: > > btw everybody, remember how labs people added a syscall just for go? > > and how that breaks compatibility for everybody? > > 9front didn't like it. but I guess we prefer to stay as compatible as > > feasible in addition to trying to prevent scenarios like these forced > > upon us (by labs, ironic eh?) Yep. I might be able to understand that change, but less so the later break= ing change to 9p auth. There was no reason for it at all; p9any already all= ows different cyphers. Thankfully, it was easy to integrate without breakin= g dpi9k, but after all the care we'd taken to preserve 9p, I found it demor= alizing. (I have this great idea for integrating file move into 9p, but "no= , we do not break 9p!") And I got the impression that the 9p change was req= uested by the very people who accused 9front the most, but I wasn't really = paying attention by then so I might very well be wrong about that. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M6daae= 820c4155549c65c5709 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20042 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2021 02:06:14 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Apr 2021 02:06:14 -0000 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4853A041 for ; 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="ality@pbrane.org"; helo=MTA-07-4.privateemail.com; client-ip=68.65.122.27 Received: from MTA-07-4.privateemail.com (mta-07-4.privateemail.com [68.65.122.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 22:05:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ality@pbrane.org) Received: from MTA-07.privateemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by MTA-07.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B4560043 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 22:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.20.151.229]) by MTA-07.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 111E360034 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 22:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:05:20 -0700 From: Anthony Martin To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question Message-ID: References: <16172946980.cd0F9b.53019@composer.9fans.topicbox.com>

<20210403154726.pr6e7ya7y2j2gyh4@azoth.pixelheresy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9d40b58a-967c-11eb-9961-915af61071af Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNWE2NDY2ZDNmZDgwZWFhMDI2YjBm?= =?UTF-8?B?OWRjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5a6466d3fd80eaa026b0f9dc:1:fmf1b2TseA1rLtKYl1R9cWeEl7o8a03BnL3leshxnUc Ethan Gardener once said: > the later breaking change to 9p auth Which change was that? 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="cinap_lenrek@felloff.net"; helo=duke.felloff.net; client-ip=216.126.196.34 Received: from duke.felloff.net (duke.felloff.net [216.126.196.34]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 10:39:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cinap_lenrek@felloff.net) Message-ID: <5E822557334CF8E10AD34450F8015D4A@felloff.net> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 16:39:18 +0200 From: cinap_lenrek@felloff.net To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3c7e763a-9878-11eb-ba5f-85d5f4447145 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NNjExZGExNmI0NzUxZDcwYzljZWZk?= =?UTF-8?B?NjFkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M611da16b4751d70c9cefd61d:1:RhmN78nM99GxaVZ_UMTz0u4y7vmHM_9Ib8ynEJNg4bc > Yep. I might be able to understand that change, but less so the later bre= aking change to 9p auth. What 9p change for auth are you talking about? The dp9ik implementation in 9front just uses p9any to negotiate it and p9sk1 is still supported; tho by default we have p9sk1 disabled at the authentication server now to prevent the offline dictionary attack on the DES encrypted tickets that p9sk1 uses (tho it can be enabled by a flag in the authservers startup script). The code changes to have both auth protocols work concurrently was actually the thing that took the most work and it took over a year of transition period until we could disable p9sk1 by default. I'm not aware of anyone changing 9p. -- cinap ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M611da= 16b4751d70c9cefd61d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23141 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2021 12:58:09 -0000 Received: from tb-ob21.topicbox.com (173.228.157.67) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Apr 2021 12:58:09 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob21.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C8723215 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 08:58:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mMdec75a41815793ccfe5cc9b4.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 2212C203BE9E; 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Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 813DA15A005F; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 08:57:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-273-g8500d2492d-fm-20210323.002-g8500d249 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <519b604b-ca94-49b3-bfd5-e26d9d4988b1@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5E822557334CF8E10AD34450F8015D4A@felloff.net> References: <5E822557334CF8E10AD34450F8015D4A@felloff.net> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 13:57:25 +0100 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34b0cb04-9933-11eb-bbb4-98c738658fac Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYzQ3MmU0YTBjMGI2ZjA4NC1NZGVjNzVhNDE4MTU3OTNjY2ZlNWNj?= =?UTF-8?B?OWI0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdec75a41815793ccfe5cc9b4:1:jP0V0aw5DMdhaOnCddEAhCO3ym0NggXgzDtx6rvmQfA On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, at 3:39 PM, cinap_lenrek@felloff.net wrote: > > Yep. I might be able to understand that change, but less so the later b= reaking change to 9p auth. >=20 > What 9p change for auth are you talking about? >=20 > The dp9ik implementation in 9front just uses p9any to negotiate > it and p9sk1 is still supported; tho by default we have p9sk1 > disabled at the authentication server now to prevent the offline > dictionary attack on the DES encrypted tickets that p9sk1 uses > (tho it can be enabled by a flag in the authservers startup script). >=20 > The code changes to have both auth protocols work concurrently > was actually the thing that took the most work and it took > over a year of transition period until we could disable > p9sk1 by default. >=20 > I'm not aware of anyone changing 9p. I'm confused now. I'm sure someone official bypassed the existing mechanism= to add a new auth protocol. I thought the existing mechanism was p9any, bu= t perhaps I was wrong. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-Mdec75= a41815793ccfe5cc9b4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription