* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems [not found] <071820081822.3544.4880DF75000734D900000DD822218675169B0A02D2089B> @ 2008-07-18 19:00 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 19:50 ` Roman V. Shaposhnik 2008-07-18 20:35 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2008-07-18 19:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: blstuart, 9fans > - The messiest bit, though, is venti and networking. > boot/boot figures it needs to set up the loopback > interface for venti. But /net/ipifc doesn't exit > and boot/boot considers this fatal. I suppose > the Right Way(tm) to is to implement /net/ipifc > and have it translate operations to the underlying > network stack, but that seems an awful lot of > work, for rather few applications. The not so > right way would be to fake it, providing the > interface, but just pretend all the messages > succeed. But I copped out. I made one change > to boot/boot. Now if it fails to open /net/ipifc/clone, > it's not fatal. the fact that the networking works differently is a problem for a number of other applications, too. dns, snoopy, aoe, cec come immediately to mind as useful stuff that won't work with 9vx. my inclination would be to give 9vx a proper ethernet device, but that idea has been discussed already. i just wonder if all the coding around the fact that the 9vx network is different is going to pay off. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 19:00 ` [9fans] 9vx and local file systems erik quanstrom @ 2008-07-18 19:50 ` Roman V. Shaposhnik 2008-07-18 20:20 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 20:35 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Roman V. Shaposhnik @ 2008-07-18 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 2008-07-18 at 15:00 -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > my inclination would be to give 9vx a proper > ethernet device, but that idea has been discussed > already. I was about to ask this very question (and say THANK YOU to Russ for another awesome piece of software), but now that you've mentioned it could you, please, elaborate on why implementing proper ethernet was rejected? Thanks, Roman. P.S. Either that or just a pointer to the existing discussion ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 19:50 ` Roman V. Shaposhnik @ 2008-07-18 20:20 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 20:28 ` ron minnich ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2008-07-18 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> my inclination would be to give 9vx a proper >> ethernet device, but that idea has been discussed >> already. > > I was about to ask this very question (and say THANK YOU > to Russ for another awesome piece of software), but now > that you've mentioned it could you, please, elaborate > on why implementing proper ethernet was rejected? http://9fans.net/archive/2008/07/310 to paraphrase with my understanding, the feeling is that 9vx will be easier to admin if the host takes care of the networking, dns, etc. that makes sense for many applications. but what i'd really like is a drawterm replacement with its own local devices. without local devices, there isn't much of an advantage over drawterm — unless your cpu server many ms away. graphics over the internet can be a bummer. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 20:20 ` erik quanstrom @ 2008-07-18 20:28 ` ron minnich 2008-07-19 1:31 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 20:31 ` [9fans] 9vx and local file systems Russ Cox 2008-07-18 21:55 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2008-07-18 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:20 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote: > but what i'd really like is a drawterm replacement with its own > local devices. without local devices, there isn't much of an > advantage over drawterm — unless your cpu server many > ms away. graphics over the internet can be a bummer. > Well, I use vx32 as a terminal for both lguest and remote machines. No real need for venfi/fossil. For edit, I import; to build etc. I cpu in an acme window so i get the error stuff. don't really want fossil/venti on vx32 yet, too slow (I tried it some time last week). But it's a great terminal, much nicer than drawterm for me. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 20:28 ` ron minnich @ 2008-07-19 1:31 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-19 2:10 ` ron minnich 2008-07-19 2:37 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2008-07-19 1:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> but what i'd really like is a drawterm replacement with its own >> local devices. without local devices, there isn't much of an >> advantage over drawterm — unless your cpu server many >> ms away. graphics over the internet can be a bummer. >> > > Well, I use vx32 as a terminal for both lguest and remote machines. No > real need for venfi/fossil. For edit, I import; to build etc. I cpu in > an acme window so i get the error stuff. what's the advantage over drawterm in this configuration? - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-19 1:31 ` erik quanstrom @ 2008-07-19 2:10 ` ron minnich 2008-07-19 2:37 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2008-07-19 2:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 6:31 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: > what's the advantage over drawterm in this configuration? > latency. The interactive program (e.g. acme) is on my machine, not on a remote machine. Rio is local. And so on. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-19 1:31 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-19 2:10 ` ron minnich @ 2008-07-19 2:37 ` Russ Cox 2008-07-21 13:26 ` [9fans] (no subject) kokamoto 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2008-07-19 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> Well, I use vx32 as a terminal for both lguest and remote machines. No >> real need for venfi/fossil. For edit, I import; to build etc. I cpu in >> an acme window so i get the error stuff. > > what's the advantage over drawterm in this configuration? In the case you quote, you'd have many of the advantages of a standalone Plan 9 terminal, like local handling of graphics and the mouse, the ability to connect to many machines simultaneously, the ability to withstand those machines rebooting, and so on. It depends a lot on what you're doing. Here's another example. For about seven years I had the luxury of running Plan 9 as my day-to-day system, but I couldn't easily keep doing that and work with the people around me at MIT; around 2003, I gave it up and switched to FreeBSD and Linux. (You'll note that's when the p9p CVS logs begin.) I haven't booted an actual Plan 9 terminal in a couple of years. Since then, I've had the smaller luxury of running Plan 9 as a venti server, now atop some nice hardware we bought from Coraid. The Coraid box has a tiny, slow IDE flash disk for a root file system, fine for holding a few binaries but not really usable as a general file system. To build the binaries, I have a second Plan 9 server with a bigger, faster root disk. I've used drawterm to connect to it, edit and compile venti, and submit patches. As I look forward to finishing at MIT, I can't leave Plan 9 boxes for others to deal with. A few months ago, I converted the main venti server (the Coraid hw) to run FreeBSD, which is what all our other servers run. That leaves the second Plan 9 server, which I still use for the occasional drawterm session to submit a patch to sources. But when I leave MIT, I can't reasonably keep using that machine as my own personal server. It'll have to be a group server running FreeBSD. The advantage of 9vx over drawterm, for me, is that 9vx doesn't require a cpu server. 9vx is how I'm going to deal with not having my own personal Plan 9 cpu server to drawterm into. Having a local Plan 9 install, stored right in my non-Plan 9 home directory, lets me keep using and occasionally contributing to Plan 9 without having to maintain and house a server. I haven't spent quite enough time setting up a comfortable 9vx that I could stop using drawterm today, but maybe tomorrow. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [9fans] (no subject) 2008-07-19 2:37 ` Russ Cox @ 2008-07-21 13:26 ` kokamoto 2008-07-21 14:45 ` a 2008-07-21 15:17 ` [9fans] 9vx vs drawterm Tim Wiess 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: kokamoto @ 2008-07-21 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > The advantage of 9vx over drawterm, for me, is that 9vx > doesn't require a cpu server. You are not using Plan 9 anymore then, rather you are using something similar to Plan 9. I felt that Plan 9 is abused by 9vx, which I felt at first glance, but at that time I didn't want to say this... I prefer drawterm because it stands in the Plan 9 world. Kenji --just my opinion-- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] (no subject) 2008-07-21 13:26 ` [9fans] (no subject) kokamoto @ 2008-07-21 14:45 ` a 2008-07-21 15:17 ` [9fans] 9vx vs drawterm Tim Wiess 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: a @ 2008-07-21 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans // You are not using Plan 9 anymore then, rather you are // using something similar to Plan 9. I don't think it's that simple. I understand the value of running a native Plan 9 installation (self-sufficiency is an almost universal value), but we don't hear the same complaints when we look at Inferno: stuff built from /emu is just as much "real" Inferno as stuff built from /os. We don't think of using the other hardware virtualizers as not being "real" Plan 9, even the ones that take kernel modifications. 9vx just feels like cheating because it's so much easier. Anthony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx vs drawterm 2008-07-21 13:26 ` [9fans] (no subject) kokamoto 2008-07-21 14:45 ` a @ 2008-07-21 15:17 ` Tim Wiess 2008-07-21 18:32 ` [9fans] Sam Benjamin Huntsman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Tim Wiess @ 2008-07-21 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> The advantage of 9vx over drawterm, for me, is that 9vx >> doesn't require a cpu server. > > You are not using Plan 9 anymore then, rather you are using something > similar to Plan 9. > > I felt that Plan 9 is abused by 9vx, which I felt at first glance, but > at that time I didn't want to say this... > > I prefer drawterm because it stands in the Plan 9 world. While I haven't yet gotten the chance to play with it, personally I felt 9vx is really a normal P9 terminal, whereas drawterm is not. Because it doesn't run natively makes no difference. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Sam 2008-07-21 15:17 ` [9fans] 9vx vs drawterm Tim Wiess @ 2008-07-21 18:32 ` Benjamin Huntsman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Benjamin Huntsman @ 2008-07-21 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 72 bytes --] the 9pm version is still the latest Sam for Windows, right? Thanks! [-- Attachment #2: winmail.dat --] [-- Type: application/ms-tnef, Size: 2120 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 20:20 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 20:28 ` ron minnich @ 2008-07-18 20:31 ` Russ Cox 2008-07-18 21:55 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2008-07-18 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > but what i'd really like is a drawterm replacement with its own > local devices. without local devices, there isn't much of an > advantage over drawterm — unless your cpu server many > ms away. graphics over the internet can be a bummer. Like I said before, please add the local devices you want. Just don't make them mandatory. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 20:20 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 20:28 ` ron minnich 2008-07-18 20:31 ` [9fans] 9vx and local file systems Russ Cox @ 2008-07-18 21:55 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2008-07-18 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I have used octopus to access my plan 9 system over links with 150ms of RTT I admit "graphics" are mostly faces and simple vector graphics. Considering that for file viewers you copy the files to a viewer device in the terminal, it all behaves reasonably. The drawback is that you get very nervous regarding losing your system due to power outages at the university :) > advantage over drawterm — unless your cpu server many > ms away. graphics over the internet can be a bummer. > > - erik > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9vx and local file systems 2008-07-18 19:00 ` [9fans] 9vx and local file systems erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 19:50 ` Roman V. Shaposhnik @ 2008-07-18 20:35 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2008-07-18 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > i just wonder if all the coding around the fact > that the 9vx network is different is going to pay off. You've spent more time talking about this than it would have taken to just implement the extra pieces you want or need, like /net/ipifc and /net/ether. The low-level OS grunge work is already done thanks to p9p. It's just a few lines of code. Or, if you are so inclined, you can port the entire existing Plan 9 IP stack. That's more than just a few lines of code. Either way, complaining isn't nearly as effective as doing. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-07-21 18:32 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <071820081822.3544.4880DF75000734D900000DD822218675169B0A02D2089B> 2008-07-18 19:00 ` [9fans] 9vx and local file systems erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 19:50 ` Roman V. Shaposhnik 2008-07-18 20:20 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-18 20:28 ` ron minnich 2008-07-19 1:31 ` erik quanstrom 2008-07-19 2:10 ` ron minnich 2008-07-19 2:37 ` Russ Cox 2008-07-21 13:26 ` [9fans] (no subject) kokamoto 2008-07-21 14:45 ` a 2008-07-21 15:17 ` [9fans] 9vx vs drawterm Tim Wiess 2008-07-21 18:32 ` [9fans] Sam Benjamin Huntsman 2008-07-18 20:31 ` [9fans] 9vx and local file systems Russ Cox 2008-07-18 21:55 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2008-07-18 20:35 ` Russ Cox
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