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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de"; helo=oat.nine.sirjofri.de; client-ip=5.45.105.127 Received: from oat.nine.sirjofri.de (oat.nine.sirjofri.de [5.45.105.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 10:57:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de) Received: from sirjofri.de ([95.90.218.213]) by oat; Sun Aug 22 16:57:12 +0200 2021 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 14:57:11 +0000 (UTC) From: sirjofri To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <92764e35-f5cf-460a-91df-050ba471e6dd@sirjofri.de> Subject: Re: [9fans] Drawterm GPU (was: Software philosophy) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4007db56-0359-11ec-a40c-b46aa6b95514 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQyOWJmYzIyM2RjNGZiZS1NNjIwZjUzZWVjYWU0MjlhMzY4ZDEw?= =?UTF-8?B?MmJmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M620f53eecae429a368d102bf:1:EHBbi2ZQxUqfmNUAcQf4Cw_nCfWY8bVA-wDOd8Cfjho The benefit of a drawterm GPU implementation is that you can basically=20 use the whole driver pipeline of the underlying host OS. Eg for the=20 windows version you can just write the software that uses the GPU driver.=20 All programming effort will just be writing a graphics implementation and=20 a proper 9p interface. Basically just a driver bridge between 9p and=20 OpenGL for example. sirjofri 22.08.2021 15:44:45 Paul Lalonde : > I'd love to see=C2=A0 GPU support for Plan9.=C2=A0 This discussion falls = right=20 > into my professional capacity.=C2=A0 I'll say that people generally=20 > *grossly* underestimate the complexity of a modern GPU and of its=20 > supporting software stack.=C2=A0 The GPU driver is effectively a second=20 > operating system with shared memory and DMA interfaces to the host.=C2=A0= =20 > Even bringing up a modern GPU for just compute tasks is a very large=20 > endeavour. > > That=C2=A0being said, if you want real hardware support, the best place t= o=20 > start is currently AMD's open-source stack.=C2=A0 Ignoring the Vulkan bit= ,=20 > understanding their platform abstraction layer (PAL) and shader ISA=20 > (https://developer.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July201= 7.pdf)=20 > is the base.=C2=A0 The lower hardware levels are reasonably=20 > well-described=C2=A0in linux's libdrm and its AMD support in amdgpu. > > Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9?=C2=A0 I don't really have any - i= t's=20 > a huge pile of work with minimal benefit.=C2=A0 If you're looking for=20 > lightweight graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and almost certainly the=20 > right way to experiment with Plan9-like interfaces to graphics=20 > hardware. > > Paul > > > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri=20 > wrote: >> >> 22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow : >>> Also: >>>> people have discussed that for years >>> >>> They have?=C2=A0 I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely >>> going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have".=C2=A0 That isn't >>> discussion. >>=20 >> I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. >> I've >> only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece >> of >> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage >> her >> partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like >> it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it. >>=20 >> Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation >> for >> Plan 9 and nobody knows about it. >>=20 >> sirjofri >>=20 >> Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some >> details. > > *9fans[https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest]* / 9fans / see=20 > discussions[https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans] +=20 > participants[https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members] +=20 > delivery=C2=A0options[https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscriptio= n]=20 > Permalink[https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-M5f5f= c3eff26e802047dbc69d] ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-M620f5= 3eecae429a368d102bf Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription