[9fans] color of window border

[9fans] color of window border

[a.b]

for example, i made screensaver. i ran my screensaver program in window 800x600,
screensaver's background is black, but i hoped i could change border color. :-((((
i don't want go into rio sources.

sasa.

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Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Lucio De Re]

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 03:58:39PM +0200, a.b@email.cz wrote:
>
> for example, i made screensaver. i ran my screensaver program in window 800x600,
> screensaver's background is black, but i hoped i could change border color. :-((((
> i don't want go into rio sources.
>
You don't need to.  The stuff is fine as is.

++L

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[rog]

> for example, i made screensaver.  i ran my screensaver program in
> window 800x600, screensaver's background is black, but i hoped i could
> change border color.  :-(((( i don't want go into rio sources.

if your window doesn't move, you *can* change the window border colour
(probably by drawing on _screen->image, although i haven't checked).

as soon as the window gets moved or resized, rio will draw the window
borders again however (probably isn't a problem for a screensaver)

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Christian Grothaus]

On Tue Sep 30 16:08:56 MDT 2003, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> if your window doesn't move, you *can* change the window border colour
> (probably by drawing on _screen->image, although i haven't checked).

Cool, it works! (Since I once tried to write a screensaver myself, I
tried it out.) I did

    back=allocimage(display, Rect(0, 0, 1, 1), CMAP8, 1, DBlack);
    draw(_screen->image, _screen->image->r, back, nil, ZP);

(If you put the draw() call in eresized, it doesn't even matter if the
window is moved or resized.)

But how is it possible in rio to create a window exactly as large as the
screen (without modifying the source)? Also, for a screensaver, the mouse
has to be hidden (or disabled if the screen is to be locked).

It would be nice to have a screensaver/-locker in Plan 9, maybe one that
incorporates Andrey's xscreensaver ports! We have all the pieces, there's
just some cosmetics left to do.

Christian

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

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there was a lock.c posted to the list some time ago.
It's what we use.

Take a look at it; I think that'll answer you questions.

hth

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From: Christian Grothaus <christian.grothaus@uni-bielefeld.de>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] color of window border
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:09:19 +0200
Message-ID: <2324ef413663ec175a9c6128abfc5499@uni-bielefeld.de>

On Tue Sep 30 16:08:56 MDT 2003, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> if your window doesn't move, you *can* change the window border colour
> (probably by drawing on _screen->image, although i haven't checked).

Cool, it works! (Since I once tried to write a screensaver myself, I
tried it out.) I did

    back=allocimage(display, Rect(0, 0, 1, 1), CMAP8, 1, DBlack);
    draw(_screen->image, _screen->image->r, back, nil, ZP);

(If you put the draw() call in eresized, it doesn't even matter if the
window is moved or resized.)

But how is it possible in rio to create a window exactly as large as the
screen (without modifying the source)? Also, for a screensaver, the mouse
has to be hidden (or disabled if the screen is to be locked).

It would be nice to have a screensaver/-locker in Plan 9, maybe one that
incorporates Andrey's xscreensaver ports! We have all the pieces, there's
just some cosmetics left to do.

Christian

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Russ Cox]

>    back=allocimage(display, Rect(0, 0, 1, 1), CMAP8, 1, DBlack);

There are already black and white images allocated for you
as display->black and display->white.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Christian Grothaus]

On Tue Sep 30 17:16:56 MDT 2003, rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> >    back=allocimage(display, Rect(0, 0, 1, 1), CMAP8, 1, DBlack);
>
> There are already black and white images allocated for you
> as display->black and display->white.

Oh well, i guess i should read graphics(2), draw(2), ...
Thanks!

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[mirtchov]

>
> But how is it possible in rio to create a window exactly as large as the
> screen (without modifying the source)? Also, for a screensaver, the mouse
> has to be hidden (or disabled if the screen is to be locked).
>

unless you're in a resized drawterm you can do:

    % fn fullscr {echo 0 0  \
         `{hoc -e `{echo $vgasize | sed 's/x/ /g' | awk '{print $1}'}^-^1} \
         `{hoc -e `{echo $vgasize | sed 's/x/ /g' | awk '{print $2}'}^-^1} \
    }
    % window -r `{fullscr} /bin/lock 'some screensaver name'

assuming lock will lock the screen and run the graphical program in it.

it's on the xscr page (together with many changes and additions)

	http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/xscr/

i'll probably substitute the images for links to images -- it gets too
graphics-heavy now...

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Rob Pike]

i posted code for a screensaver/locker a few months ago.
should be easy to find in the archive.  you can customize
how it saves your screen to your heart's content. mine turns
the display off.

-rob

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Christian Grothaus]

Thank you, Nemo, Andrey and Rob, for your tips.
I've found lock.c in the archive -- actually that does all i want.

Christian

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[ron minnich]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 a.b@email.cz wrote:

> i don't want go into rio sources.

no, go into them. It's painless and quite neat.

ron

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Richard C Bilson]

> Similar point -- the menus would still be accessible over vnc.

Yes, of course, but if I do most of my work over vnc then the payoff
for me is small, since I'm using the menu most of the time anyway.  And
then I can't rely on "muscle memory" when I want to move a window -- I
have to consciously think about whether I'm talking to vnc or not (lest
I wind up moving the whole vnc session).

And another thought: I think the real brilliance of chords in acme is
not that they optimize common operations, but that by optimizing a few
important operations they enable a different and more productive style
of working.  It's remarkable how much it has cut down on repetitive
typing for me.  On the other hand, I can't imagine chords ever having
the same sort of fundamental impact on the way I use the window
manager.  Which makes me question whether it's really worth doing.

None of this should dissuade you, of course, if you feel like trying
it.  In fact, if I remember tonight I'll send you the model number
for my mouse.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Richard C Bilson]

> The main downside to every thumb-button mouse I've
> seen is the always present scroll-wheely.

Logitech has made them with three real buttons plus the thumb button,
and no wheel.  I know, because I have one.  I probably bought it at
least five years ago, though, so I don't know if they still make them.
The world seems to have become wheel-obsessed in the interim.

Unfortunately, I have never found a good use for the thumb button.  I
like your chording-for-window-management idea (it has occurred to me
before), but the payoff has never seemed worth the effort: even if I
taught the mouse driver and the window manager to do the right things,
it still wouldn't work over vnc.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Sam]

Joel said:
> Until some function is applied to the thumb button (unlikely, except on
> private modifications - 3 button mice are a decent standard to adhere
> to, and *no one* wants standard "features" only accessible to owners of
> special hardware), why not assign the "middle button" function to the
> thumb button? Or maybe even let the thumb-button be the "left" button,
> and have the left become the "middle" ?

I agree that mouse specific features would be irritating.  I've been
trying to think of ways to make the basic set of rio tasks easier
with a thumb button.  Just because we can use thumb chords to
mimic common tasks without going to the menus (move, resize, new)
doesn't mean the menus have to go away.

Richard said:
> Unfortunately, I have never found a good use for the thumb button.  I
> like your chording-for-window-management idea (it has occurred to me
> before), but the payoff has never seemed worth the effort: even if I
> taught the mouse driver and the window manager to do the right things,
> it still wouldn't work over vnc.

Similar point -- the menus would still be accessible over vnc.

Sam

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[boyd, rounin]

i'd prefer to have my machine/terminal in an area where i
don't need to lock it (which always goes off when i'm just
about to do something).

if you can't have a secure area and your terminal/machine
has a usb port i think that a user mode 'monitor' of some
crypto-secure usb ram/disk might be nice.  i rip it out when i
walk away from the machine, i jam it back in when i come
back.

same sort of thing any half way decent bank uses with
their tellers.  can't be too hard to code.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[C H Forsyth]

should there be bordered windows at all?

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[ron minnich]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, C H Forsyth wrote:

> should there be bordered windows at all?

looking at that beautiful rio code, seems like it ought to be easy. And
the true fun is, it is so easy to muck around with rio and then test it in
a rio window ... compare that to trying to tweak ANYTHING in an X
desktop manager.


ron

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Rob Ristroph]

>>>>> "ron" == ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> writes:
ron> looking at that beautiful rio code, seems like it ought to be
ron> easy. And the true fun is, it is so easy to muck around with rio
ron> and then test it in a rio window ... compare that to trying to
ron> tweak ANYTHING in an X desktop manager.
ron>
ron> ron

You mean the pain and torment of flipping back to the console to type
"startx -- :2" and test X without losing your current window state, as
compared to the ease and simplicity of doing right button down, select
new, sweep open new window, and typing "rio" ?

--Rob

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Charles Forsyth]

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i suspect he was talking about also modifying the CODE of an X11
window manager.  flipping is right.

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From: rgr@sdf.lonestar.org (Rob Ristroph)
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] color of window border
Date: 30 Sep 2003 18:45:22 -0500
Message-ID: <87k77pu9gt.fsf@rgristroph-austin.ath.cx>


>>>>> "ron" == ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> writes:
ron> looking at that beautiful rio code, seems like it ought to be
ron> easy. And the true fun is, it is so easy to muck around with rio
ron> and then test it in a rio window ... compare that to trying to
ron> tweak ANYTHING in an X desktop manager.
ron>
ron> ron

You mean the pain and torment of flipping back to the console to type
"startx -- :2" and test X without losing your current window state, as
compared to the ease and simplicity of doing right button down, select
new, sweep open new window, and typing "rio" ?

--Rob

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[matt]

If you were really developing a rio tweak you would have the necessary command for starting rio in Acme somewhere

something like window rc -c rio

so your analogy should be

"You mean the pain and torment of middle click compared to the ease and simplicity of typing ctrl-alt-f7 startx --:2 enter"

add into that the new rio will run next to your editor

sorry, you lose

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[boyd, rounin]

yeah, i have this file [good god no] $home/lib/windows which gets run when
rio starts and i have all my windows running what i want, where i want it.

but i'm sure it's far to complex :-P

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[mirtchov]

> You mean the pain and torment of flipping back to the console to type
> "startx -- :2" and test X without losing your current window state, as
> compared to the ease and simplicity of doing right button down, select
> new, sweep open new window, and typing "rio" ?
>
> --Rob

it's more like this (because i've done it):

	- finding what to edit in X's source 	-- 1 hour (500mb source!)

	- editing a small change 			-- 5 minutes

repeat:
	- rethinking whether you did the right thing while it compiles
	-- 5 minutes

	- waiting for the rest of the compile to finish
								-- 1 hour (varies)

	- goto repeat unless you're happy 	-- 0 minutes

	- pressing ctlr+alt+Fx 			-- 0 minutes

	- pressing ctlr+alt+Fx a few more times because you can't find
	where your last session where 		-- 0 minutes

	- cursing and typing your username at the login: window
								-- 1 minute

	- typing startx :2 to start new X 	-- 1 minute (and waiting for it to start)

	- finding the consequences of your change
								-- 5 minutes

	- killing X because you realized you started the wrong binary
								-- 0 minutes

	- typing $home/src/somewhere/blah/startx
								-- 5 minutes (includes making
								sure it didn't _still_ start the wrong binary)


Frustration: endless...

I'm sorry, you can't beat the functionality you get for something as
simple as Rio.  And as a developer you really can't beat the ~7000 (!)
lines of code that it comprises.

ok, there are differences (vga drivers are in the kernel, for
example).  still it's much simpler and even complete idiots like me
can understand it.  somewhat.

inflamatory subject though, i admit :)

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[ron minnich]

or, like me, spending a day with two seemingly-identical sets of code, one
of which is an ugly pile of shit, and can blank the cursor; the other, a
bit less ugly, and which can't. And of course the only error is BadOp.

Which is why, on my web page to this day, the pictures of my Sarnoff
tiled display cluster still have an 'X' cursor in the middle: I couldn't
blank the damned thing.


ron

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Charles Forsyth]

> should there be bordered windows at all?

i really meant `borders' in the larger sense,
not (just) lines drawn round them.  it seems
odd to me that there is significant hardware
available casually now but on XP MacOSX Redhat
it's all the same old thing.  different twiddles,
perhaps (though often not even that), but so
far of the environments i've seen only acme
has really stood out.

is that it, then?

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 01:40:21AM +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> > should there be bordered windows at all?
>
> i really meant `borders' in the larger sense,
> not (just) lines drawn round them.  it seems
> odd to me that there is significant hardware
> available casually now but on XP MacOSX Redhat
> it's all the same old thing.  different twiddles,
> perhaps (though often not even that), but so
> far of the environments i've seen only acme
> has really stood out.
>
> is that it, then?

i wrote a short rant on this in response to Sun's
announcement of there mad hatter desktop. i adore
acme for coding. whenever i go back to anything
else, it always feels clunky and frustrating.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Dan Cross]

Charles Forsyth <forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> > should there be bordered windows at all?
>
> i really meant `borders' in the larger sense,
> not (just) lines drawn round them.  it seems
> odd to me that there is significant hardware
> available casually now but on XP MacOSX Redhat
> it's all the same old thing.  different twiddles,
> perhaps (though often not even that), but so
> far of the environments i've seen only acme
> has really stood out.
>
> is that it, then?

It's a sad state of affairs.  Well, there's still Squeak and Oberon,
but neither has any mainstream traction.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Wes Kussmaul]

> if you can't have a secure area and your terminal/machine
> has a usb port i think that a user mode 'monitor' of some
> crypto-secure usb ram/disk might be nice.  i rip it out when i
> walk away from the machine, i jam it back in when i come
> back.

How about a proximity token or vicinity token. The vicinity token is clipped
to your shirt or embedded in an ID badge. When you walk away your monitor
and keyboard are disabled, when you come back within (settable) range they
reactivate. Typically uses Bluetooth or rfid. The prox token uses IrDA and
must be placed close to the port.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[boyd, rounin]

> How about a proximity token or vicinity token.

hmm that's not so hot.  at CRL 'we' had active badges.
that was kinda cool.  there are attacks on proximity and
active id's.

the métro in paris now has passive proxity monthy
passes, with old h/w style tickets for backup.  i love
'em, but it's only protecting a métro ride.

we had passive badges at PRL to get into the lab, but
physical badges for ID, which we never wore 'cos we
knew everyone and if you did wear a badge you obviously
didn't 'belong'.

but, some of the 'machine rooms' you had to know the
code for the electronic digital locks.  those code we're
_never_ given out to anybody wasn't trusted (and after
some idiot kicked the power cable out of one of my
uVAX's i was at the point of saying:  only these small n
people, who i trust, can have thim).  but everything had
gone to shit by then anyway ...

maybe at this job fair tomorrow they'll have some usb
ram disks to give out as toys, so i might have a go at it
with 'coma'.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[mirtchov]

> How about a proximity token or vicinity token. The vicinity token is clipped
> to your shirt or embedded in an ID badge. When you walk away your monitor
> and keyboard are disabled, when you come back within (settable) range they
> reactivate. Typically uses Bluetooth or rfid. The prox token uses IrDA and
> must be placed close to the port.

the Sun Ray terminals were good that way -- you plug in your card, do
your stuff and take the card out when you're done.  plug in somewhere
and continue from where you left before...

i've wanted to see that in Plan 9 for 3 years (no, vnc doesn't count :)

	http://wwws.sun.com/sunray/sunray150/

[9fans] color of window border

[a.b]

thanx for so many answers.
i don't want rio to converge to classic window managers!
i don't want to start a flamewar :-))))
i'll try this: ... drawing on screen->image

sasa babic.

________________________________________________________________________________
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[9fans] color of window border

[a.b]

hallo planiners :-)

i'd like to ask a question about graphics:
is there any way to change the color of window border by libdraw function?
window border is usualy green, i'd like to change it to black.
is that possible?


sasa babic

----------> Created by Email.cz  http://www.email.cz <---------- Get Your Free Email  

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[rog]

> window border is usualy green, i'd like to change it to black.

change the source!

plan 9 doesn't go in for configurable styles in general
(changing the font is as far as it goes).

why black?

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[mirtchov]

> why black?

just to be different?  or introduce more strain to the eye, so that
you _really_ need that stiff drink after a day of Plan 9-ing?

i live with black borders on white xterms in lunix, partly because it
makes me feel more comfortable in rio and forces me to switch to its
window more often.

rampant themeing is sure to come -- it's a sign of a healthy userbase
and the first step towards taking over the world (and turning Plan 9
into the next OS-everybody-loves-to-hate :)

andrey

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[ron minnich]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca wrote:

> rampant themeing is sure to come -- it's a sign of a healthy userbase
> and the first step towards taking over the world (and turning Plan 9
> into the next OS-everybody-loves-to-hate :)

yeah, for example, I want <= and => arrows to mean 'cycle to next window'
instead of 'do whatever down-arrow does'. So I'm looking at the source and
.. it's realy nice stuff.

ron

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Sam]

> yeah, for example, I want <= and => arrows to mean 'cycle to next window'
> instead of 'do whatever down-arrow does'. So I'm looking at the source and
> .. it's realy nice stuff.

While we're talking about rio hacks, has anyone thought of
uses for a four-button mouse?  I've seen some mice with a
nifty thumb button (button-4?) and can see myself doing
window management with thumb chords a la, thumb-and-forefinger
pick up window to move it.

The main downside to every thumb-button mouse I've
seen is the always present scroll-wheely.

Cheers,

Sam

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Joel Salomon]

Sam said:
> The main downside to every thumb-button mouse I've
> seen is the always present scroll-wheely.

Until some function is applied to the thumb button (unlikely, except on
private modifications - 3 button mice are a decent standard to adhere to,
and *no one* wants standard "features" only accessible to owners of
special hardware), why not assign the "middle button" function to the
thumb button? Or maybe even let the thumb-button be the "left" button, and
have the left become the "middle" ?

The scroll-wheel is convenient (under windoze) for *small* scrollings. On
sources, iirc, there is a patch to rio to let scroll-wheeling emulate
up-arrow and down-arrow - I couldn't get it to work with my USB mouse,
though. Is there a wheel patch for usbmouse?

--Joel

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[matt]

that might be nice

the feature that keeps me using Enlightenment is alt & mouse 1 to grab a window for moving.

When I change to other systems it's the one thing that I keep doing instinctively.

m

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[splite]

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 12:33:40PM -0400, matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> that might be nice
>
> the feature that keeps me using Enlightenment is alt & mouse 1 to grab a
> window for moving.
>
> When I change to other systems it's the one thing that I keep doing
> instinctively.

That's hardly a reason to suffer a monstrosity like E.  Even old-sk00l twm
does that by default.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[matt]

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> That's hardly a reason to suffer a monstrosity like E.

Well I'm not exactly suffering

I only keep X at all for dual monitors and a web browser

I didn't know twm did it but I know 9wm doesn't 8(

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From: splite@purdue.edu
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] color of window border
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:04:41 -0500
Message-ID: <20031001040441.GA712@sigint.cs.purdue.edu>

On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 12:33:40PM -0400, matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> that might be nice
>
> the feature that keeps me using Enlightenment is alt & mouse 1 to grab a
> window for moving.
>
> When I change to other systems it's the one thing that I keep doing
> instinctively.

That's hardly a reason to suffer a monstrosity like E.  Even old-sk00l twm
does that by default.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[boyd, rounin]

> I only keep X at all for dual monitors and a web browser
>
> I didn't know twm did it but I know 9wm doesn't 8(

twm did.  you could 'fairly' easily beat into some sort of 8 1/2.

when faced with X i just 'leave it alone', edit my .Xdefaults,
install sam and THAT'S IT.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, ron minnich wrote:

> yeah, for example, I want <= and => arrows to mean 'cycle to next window'
> instead of 'do whatever down-arrow does'. So I'm looking at the source and
> .. it's realy nice stuff.

and very soon we arrive at very beautiful desktops that are unusable by
anyone but the person who created them, worse yet -- we'd have something
like Enlightenment, is a sensory overkill, nevermind that extra 50% of one's
cpu time (back in the day) went for calculating funky resize animations...

i see it every day -- someone says 'hey, andrey, come take a look at this',
i'd sit on their terminal and say helplessly 'please open me a new xterm'...

i really like rio as the common denominator -- simple is better.. i admit, i
would like to see multiple virtual desktops for that little extra spice when
my monitor gets cluttered with windows, but i'm not pushing it too hard :)

andrey

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[C H Forsyth]

>>would like to see multiple virtual desktops for that little extra spice when

you could run several rios in big windows and hide them.

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[ron minnich]

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, C H Forsyth wrote:

> you could run several rios in big windows and hide them.

yeah, I've done this, but it's clumsy. I have to admit, watching people
switch desktops with keyboards, and then watching them cycle windows with
keyboards, I like it.

ron

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[C H Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 437 bytes --]

i have the opposite feeling watching
windows/unix users cycle through windows that way.

i can't help thinking there must be a more direct way--
i don't know what it is, partly because with acme i've got
very few windows, and in acme everything else is right there.
when charon ends up underneath, which it often does,
i'd prefer not to cycle through them to get to it but
to have it end up somewhere better in the first place.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2805 bytes --]

From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] color of window border
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:20:56 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0309300920190.18627-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, C H Forsyth wrote:

> you could run several rios in big windows and hide them.

yeah, I've done this, but it's clumsy. I have to admit, watching people
switch desktops with keyboards, and then watching them cycle windows with
keyboards, I like it.

ron

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[Christian Grothaus]

On Tue Sep 30 15:36:49 MDT 2003, a.b@email.cz wrote:
> is there any way to change the color of window border by libdraw function?
> window border is usualy green, i'd like to change it to black.
> is that possible?

I guess you can only change it by modifying the rio sources.
The border color is set in /sys/src/cmd/rio/wind.c.

Greetings

Christian

Re: [9fans] color of window border

[boyd, rounin]

> is there any way to change the color of window border by libdraw function?

if you want X11 ...