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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de"; helo=sirjofri.de; client-ip=5.45.105.127 Received: from sirjofri.de (sirjofri.de [5.45.105.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 13 May 2024 05:57:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de) Received: from dummy.faircode.eu ([95.90.217.91]) by sirjofri.de; Mon May 13 11:57:36 +0200 2024 Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 11:57:35 +0200 (GMT+02:00) From: sirjofri To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <17155921690.3bf6.679459@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <7eb7bd48-c6c1-4649-8c7b-000df046fed1@posixcafe.org> <17155723490.63cF0a1BB.31755@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17155862790.b8aBca6c.427179@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17155921690.3bf6.679459@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 412ca2ca-110f-11ef-b555-6f73028c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NNDc0YWRlNGM0MjQ3Zjc0Y2Y4NjRm?= =?UTF-8?B?MGI0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M474ade4c4247f74cf864f0b4:1:VBhFcUGxxaaWsXSZuGvSPKdpWa8m6jgVfiTrc3bYWW4 So, with that definition, the system described in the paper "Plan 9 from be= ll labs" is not plan9, because it describes any system that uses the same c= oncepts? So, plan9 is like UNIX=E2=84=A2 and there's no such thing as a concept abou= t plan 9? Note that 9front never claimed to be a continuation, but a fork. The people= who desperately cry for a continuation of plan 9 either claim 9front as a = continuation, or explicitly not. People who want a continuation of plan 9 missed the train a long time ago. = There won't be an official continuation of plan 9, and that's a fact, becau= se p9f won't do it. It's not the devs who claim a continuation of plan9, it's the people asking= for it. And if people want just a continuation of the concepts (the concepts which = are commonly understood as "plan 9"), 9front is also one of those continuat= ions, same as 9legacy or any other fork that tries to live those concepts. So, you could say, plan 9 from bell labs is the last released version, 4th = edition. The others (9legacy, 9front, ...) are also plan 9, just not plan 9= from bell labs. Similar to how UNIX=E2=84=A2 is a unix, as is any linux system, bsd and mac. 13.05.2024 11:23:16 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: >> I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the licens= es are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they should!). >>=20 >> So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX=E2=84=A2 or unix or po= six? Who knows... >>=20 >> I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's enou= gh and you can puzzle everything else yourself. >=20 > plan9 is simply the final release made by bell labs and now owned by p9f.= Thats not my interpretation this is a fact. Everything beyond that point i= s a fork based on plan9.=C2=A0 >=20 > Everyone is allowed to derive his/her work from this provided version of = plan9. >=20 > 9front is a fork, 9legacy is a fork and there were other forks. I have my= own fork. If tomorrow another one decides to fork plan9 than thats okay. >=20 > 9front isn't plan9. 9front is a fork based on plan9. Why is it that you c= an't accept this fact. You aren't the owners of plan9 and you don't=C2=A0 e= ven own the trademark plan9. >=20 > Your fork is called 9front and its absolutely okay to fork from code with= a license that allows this. >=20 > Your fork based on plan9 is extremely close to the original. But that doe= sn't mean you are the continuation of plan9. >=20 > The only thing we can agree on as fork developers is what is officially c= alled plan9 as a basement for exchange of code ideas aso. Code that can be = compiled and executed on the official release is one that can be exchanged. >=20 > There is only one group on this messaging board which has a problem with = this definition of plan9 thats 9front. You insist on being seen as the cont= inuation of plan9 but you aren't. You could have become this by buying plan= 9 from nokia and the trademark or nokia could have chosen you to hand it ov= er to you but they didn't. p9f owns plan9 and if they ever decide to hand i= t over to you than you become officially the owner and continuation of plan= 9 but this won't change the fact that meanwhile others have forked from pla= n9 and call themselves fork xyz based on plan9 and you to respect this. >=20 > Why is it so difficult for folks of 9front to accept that they are provid= ing a fork based on plan9. >=20 >> [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front pe= ople have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for a few= people.) >>=20 >=20 > And so what ? Compared to the replies of some folks from 9front regarding= simple questions there is nothing bold about my statements. This is 9fans = and if you start the same discussions over and over again than you have to = live with answers like mine. Neither you nor I own plan9 while people outsi= de 9front have no problem with facts you have this problem. You can't just = accept the fact that 9front is a fork like many others. You may do a good j= ob for your users and many enjoy using 9front as stated many times here on = this board but but you do your job others do their job and you are in no po= sition to give directions to others. I respect your work continue with it b= ut don't act as if you are the ones who are in possession of plan9 or can d= ictate directions you can't and I also can't. I'm fed up with the regularly= disputes you search with people who don't want to use your fork. I'm not u= sing it and nothing will change my mind. >=20 >> About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial = products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never hea= rd about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other companies = who actually use plan 9. >>=20 >> Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and = nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a single c= ompany that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw that could = evolve into commercial products. >=20 > I am and have acted as an advisor for many of these projects. The license= change made it attractive for such projects cause you can keep your code c= losed source. The only duty to fulfill is providing the terms of the MIT li= cense. You don't have to make your technology open source like you would ha= ve to if you used Linux. >=20 > Don't underestimate the potential. Another example for a tiny os which is= wide spread is Xinu which no one would expect. Plan9 has advantages over o= ther systems that makes it attractive. I can only talk about those projects= I know but be assured there are millions of devices around which run plan9= without anyone noticing. >=20 >=20 > Again for the x-th time : I don't have a problem with 9front. I don't use= it but I respect your work. The only think I dislike is the never ending d= iscussions about plan9 being dead and 9front being the only choice and the = attitude in some replies to questions of people on this board in an harsh a= nd aggressive way. The moment one asks about 9legacy or plan9 and one from = 9front advices to use 9front without success many of 9front getting aggress= ive and thats not right. >=20 >=20 >=20 > *9fans[https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest]* / 9fans / see discussions[http= s://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans] + participants[https://9fans.topicbox.= com/groups/9fans/members] + delivery=C2=A0options[https://9fans.topicbox.co= m/groups/9fans/subscription] Permalink[https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9f= ans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M7e742d8d84209fb41f920f30] ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M474ad= e4c4247f74cf864f0b4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription