Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[John Floren]

Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted...

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> (Trolling unintentional)
>
> The misspelling of Xerox in Acme has bugged me for a long time.  I
> want to suggest that we change it to Clone.  Votes?
>
> ++L
>
>

[9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

(Trolling unintentional)

The misspelling of Xerox in Acme has bugged me for a long time.  I
want to suggest that we change it to Clone.  Votes?

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted...

All bikesheds need to be repainted eventually.

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[tlaronde]

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:28:47PM -0700, John Floren wrote:
> Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted...

But we don't agree on the colour...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:28:47PM -0700, John Floren wrote:
>> Just when you thought every bikeshed had been painted...
>
> But we don't agree on the colour...

That's the thing about the bike shed: choosing a colour must not delay
construction.  But once it's built and it needs a new coat of paint,
it is not unreasonable to discuss the choice of colours.

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Anthony Sorace]

This is a bit silly. Zerox here (in the context of acme/Plan 9) has a well-understood meaning. Obvious etymology aside, it's essentially a made-up word here. It's beneficial that it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvious a priori (in the "normal" case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no expectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here).

On May 30, 2012, at 2:30, Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:

> (Trolling unintentional)
> 
> The misspelling of Xerox in Acme has bugged me for a long time.  I
> want to suggest that we change it to Clone.  Votes?
> 
> ++L
> 

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Richard Miller]

> it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvious a priori (in the "normal" case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no expectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here).

I vote for Dup.

Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).

dop.  dop!  make it stop!
i can't not
will not
have a dop!

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Calvin Morrison]

On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).
>
> dop.  dop!  make it stop!
> i can't not
> will not
> have a dop!
>
> - erik
>

copy?

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[John Floren]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Calvin Morrison <mutantturkey@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>>> Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).
>>
>> dop.  dop!  make it stop!
>> i can't not
>> will not
>> have a dop!
>>
>> - erik
>>
>
> copy?
>

That surely won't be confused with the "Snarf" functionality at all

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Richard Miller]

>> copy?
>>
> That surely won't be confused with the "Snarf" functionality at all

And on second thought, maybe Dup is a bit too much like Dump ...

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Calvin Morrison]

On 30 May 2012 12:17, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Calvin Morrison <mutantturkey@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>>>> Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).
>>>
>>> dop.  dop!  make it stop!
>>> i can't not
>>> will not
>>> have a dop!
>>>
>>> - erik
>>>
>>
>> copy?
>>
>
> That surely won't be confused with the "Snarf" functionality at all
>

Snarf is a dumb name. It isn't well named.

 tr.v. snarfed, snarf·ing, snarfs Slang
 To eat or drink rapidly or eagerly; devour: snarfed down some cookies.
 [Probably sn(ort) + (sc)arf.]

Calvin

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

I'd prefer clown, because it reminds me of clone. ;)
couldn't resist.

On May 30, 2012, at 6:20 PM, Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote:

>>> copy?
>>>
>> That surely won't be confused with the "Snarf" functionality at all
>
> And on second thought, maybe Dup is a bit too much like Dump ...
>

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[tlaronde]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:23:02PM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote:
>
> Snarf is a dumb name. It isn't well named.

This is because you are probably an english native speaker searching
sensibility behind sounds or "pictures" (written text) that seem
familiar to you. For the others---like me---the computer language
is something that has not much to do with a lingua and could be
almost arbitrary.

There are times when being not an english native speaker has
advantages... Because all the grammatical mistakes, repeated errors and
nonsense uses will spoil your native language and you will have to
switch to "international english" ruled by repeated hence agreed on,
hence established errors... And when you will have to say sensible
things, you will need to use a sensible language...[Demoniac laugh]

--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Skip Tavakkolian]

Snarf is not the same as Zerox. I suggest Xerox. Let them sue.

On May 30, 2012, at 9:17 AM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:

> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Calvin Morrison <mutantturkey@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 May 2012 11:25, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>>>> Or Dop (short for Doppelgänger).
>>> 
>>> dop.  dop!  make it stop!
>>> i can't not
>>> will not
>>> have a dop!
>>> 
>>> - erik
>>> 
>> 
>> copy?
>> 
> 
> That surely won't be confused with the "Snarf" functionality at all
> 

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[hiro]

alles doofköppe hier?

translation: this thread is so dope.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[cinap_lenrek]

ZARDOZ!!!

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Bakul Shah]

On Wed, 30 May 2012 16:20:47 BST Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com>  wrote:
> > it isn't a false cognate to some action, since the behavior is not obvi=
> ous a priori (in the "normal" case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no exp=
> ectation that the copies stay in sync, as they do here).

It just opens another window on the same file that starts out
showing the same content so none of the names make sense.
Seems no one has come up with a good name for this function --
in nvi it is :E and in vim, :split.  I'd leave it alone.

I used to use Dave Yost's "Grand" editor (a version of the
Rand editor) that allowed scolling windows in X or Y direction
in lockstep. Handy for editing tables. You can show the header
line or the left most column while editing other rows or
columns that would normally not show on the same screen in a
single window.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[sl]

> I'd leave it alone.

This.

-sl

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Wed, 30 May 2012 18:42:21 +0200
tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:

> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:23:02PM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote:
> >
> > Snarf is a dumb name. It isn't well named.
>
> This is because you are probably an english native speaker searching
> sensibility behind sounds or "pictures" (written text) that seem
> familiar to you. For the others---like me---the computer language
> is something that has not much to do with a lingua and could be
> almost arbitrary.

That's an interesting perspective but as a native English speaker I
would disagree about the root of the problem. "Snarf" bothered my
idiotic sense of propriety at first but I didn't have to consciously
dissect it to get the meaning. I can make myself understood with slang
and somewhat made-up words to most native English speakers whether
they're English or American.

There are two groups who don't get my "natural" pattern of speech. One
is those who have taken "proper" English and believed all their
lessons, whether they are natives with a social need to be proper or
(more commonly) foreigners who have received a proper education in the
language. This "proper" English is not the language of the English
people, and I find it remarkable that there is so much so-called
improperness in common between Britain and the US after 200 years of
separation and 100 years of compulsory schooling.

Even "English" slang has percolated down from the top, from the upper
classes I guess, or at least those divorced from their linguistic
heritage and subjected to a strict edumacation in ... okay, I won't
rant, I really wont, but the old lower-class English used slang a lot
like the US. That class of people had almost died out before US slang
started filtering back in any substantial way. The other group who
don't get it is those who take their slang from Spanish I think, but
I'm much less clear on this point.

uh.. I just noticed "snarf" wasn't picked up by my spell checker and
isn't in its personal dictionary. Take that as you will.

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> This is a bit silly.  Zerox here (in the context of acme/Plan 9) has a
> well-understood meaning.  Obvious etymology aside, it's essentially a
> made-up word here.  It's beneficial that it isn't a false cognate to
> some action, since the behavior is not obvious a priori (in the
> "normal" case of xeroxing or cloning, there's no expectation that the
> copies stay in sync, as they do here).

Well, there you go, somebody actually is willing to offer a valuable
opinion.  Thanks, Anthony.

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[tlaronde]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 05:10:01AM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>
> This "proper" English is not the language of the English
> people, and I find it remarkable that there is so much so-called
> improperness in common between Britain and the US after 200 years of
> separation and 100 years of compulsory schooling.
>

Since the thread is off topic, more off topicness is just on spot.

When one is interested in creation, evolution, history of languages
"compared grammar"---as I am---the huge differences in the formation of
english and french for example are worth knowing. English is said (not
by me, but by english philologists) to have come from lower
classes---upper classes talking "old" french due to history. And there
is some parallel between english and x86 language, and french or german
and R.I.S.C. language: english have both very short overloaded with
incompatible meanings words, the very used ones, and very long ones;
that's why a lot of people think they "speak" english because with a
bunch of very short ambiguous words they cover the day to day use. And
this is why too pop music is using this english, because it is by far
easier to put shortest words, almost onomatopoeia, on whatever music,
than to have to find lengthy ones having a sense and matching the
rhythm---and if people were generally understanding the meaning of the
pop music "texts" they will probably far less like them...

But to speak or to write a meaningful english, is far more difficult.
And I would say that it is easier to start english than to achieve a
correct level in english and I doubt that a non native english speaker
can achieve it---because there are no written rules but a context that
only a native speaker has: from the dictionnary, there are a lot of
words that seem to convey the very same meaning; but a native speaker
will use some in some context, and other in others; while in french too
distinct words have never the very same meaning, and the nuance is
established.

So back to the initial "off topic", there is a Plan9 idiom like the "C
language" for localization: it ressembles some english easing to grasp
the commands; but there are some actions that don't fit a short word and
tastes vary, none being able to claim having _the_ solution; in this
case "the taste of the chief is the law", that is it's a convention and
it is good and right because it is a convention in order to choose the
colour once and for all, the material and the shape of the bikeshed
being more essential.

So in clear: to my taste, let us leave everything as it is
"historically"; it is Plan9 language, not english, and if this is just
as good as is than with an alternative, this means that this is
better as is since it has established history.

--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Anthony Sorace]

On May 31, 2012, at 0:10, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:

> This "proper" English is not the language of the English people...

"The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their
children to speak it. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach
himself what it sounds like. It is impossible for an Englishman to open
his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him."
--George Bernard Shaw

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> But to speak or to write a meaningful english, is far more difficult.
> And I would say that it is easier to start english than to achieve a
> correct level in english and I doubt that a non native english speaker
> can achieve it---because there are no written rules but a context that
> only a native speaker has: from the dictionary, there are a lot of
> words that seem to convey the very same meaning; but a native speaker
> will use some in some context, and other in others; while in french too
> distinct words have never the very same meaning, and the nuance is
> established.

three things on connotation vs. denotation as it's known in american
high school english classes:

- my wife proves you wrong.  (don't worry.  you're not alone.)  nobody
guesses that english is not her native tongue.

- the rules are in proper dictionaries like the oed.  entries include
usage over time illustrated by quoted text and generally include
the earliest known reference.

- i think you're drawing perhaps too bright a line.
new connotations for particular words crop up all the time, especially
in small groups.  i'm sure the one-word private joke is a common
experience in many languages.  i can recall a few from germany.
schädelbräu comes to mind.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[steve]

Aww, leave sam alone, he served us well for (so) many
years,  zerox is part of his baroque charm.

if where to change any text, which i wouldn't, it would
be snarf, which always draws comments from the uninitiated.

the one real change that i think would be worthwhile
would be a warp-to-location on undo or redo. i occasionally
want to undo a little of the changes i have made, but if these
are not in the current view its not easy to judge how many steps to undo.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[John Floren]

Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure
would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll
the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit
from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah,
Plan 9 doesn't use a lot of config files, but Acme is one of the most
complex bits of software we've got. This could allow the addition of
new functionality (like a switch to make Undo/Redo warp-to-location)
while still maintaining Curmudgeon Mode (triggered by not having an
acme.conf).

I'm too used to Acme (with all its quirks) to try putting that sort of
thing in, though :)


john

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:05 AM, steve <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> Aww, leave sam alone, he served us well for (so) many
> years,  zerox is part of his baroque charm.
>
> if where to change any text, which i wouldn't, it would
> be snarf, which always draws comments from the uninitiated.
>
> the one real change that i think would be worthwhile
> would be a warp-to-location on undo or redo. i occasionally
> want to undo a little of the changes i have made, but if these
> are not in the current view its not easy to judge how many steps to undo.
>
> -Steve
>
>

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

Yes.
Also, if anyone wants a different behavior, it´s easy to change
to source so it fits your preferences. 

On May 31, 2012, at 8:05 PM, steve wrote:

> Aww, leave sam alone, he served us well for (so) many
> years,  zerox is part of his baroque charm.
> 
> if where to change any text, which i wouldn't, it would
> be snarf, which always draws comments from the uninitiated.
> 
> the one real change that i think would be worthwhile
> would be a warp-to-location on undo or redo. i occasionally
> want to undo a little of the changes i have made, but if these
> are not in the current view its not easy to judge how many steps to undo.
> 
> -Steve
> 

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure
> would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll
> the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit
> from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah, [...]

i think the key here is that acme has reached the stage where if there were
version numbers, we'd be restricted to fiddling the 5th digit.  acme is great,
but i think in terms of developing new ideas, it's time to move on.

i'd like to see a new editor that builds on acme.  the feature i'd like to see
is support for images and layouts.  the design element i'd like to see is
lots of little programs rather than one big acme.  so edit/win, edit/edit,
edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently
does.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Burton Samograd]

> so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does.

Sounds a bit like emacs :)

--
Burton Samograd

This e-mail, including accompanying communications and attachments, is strictly confidential and only for the intended recipient. Any retention, use or disclosure not expressly authorised by Markit is prohibited. This email is subject to all waivers and other terms at the following link: http://www.markit.com/en/about/legal/email-disclaimer.page

Please visit http://www.markit.com/en/about/contact/contact-us.page? for contact information on our offices worldwide.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[tlaronde]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:00:35PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
> 
> - my wife proves you wrong.  (don't worry.  you're not alone.)  nobody
> guesses that english is not her native tongue.

But she lives in this U.S. context. I'm speaking about "off the ground"
speakers.

> 
> - the rules are in proper dictionaries like the oed.  entries include
> usage over time illustrated by quoted text and generally include
> the earliest known reference.

This does not contradict what I say. There are probably better, longer
dictionnaries with quotations and the like. But for the main part, even
in "short" french dictionnaries, there is no problem. Variations are
only needed in some specific and YMMV grammatical situations. We have
the Académie Française, and the language has been ruled _before_ mass
came to schools. I do think that a foreigner can speak a perfect french
while being "off the ground". I doubt for high level english, and there
are several levels in english---it is for example astonishing the
difference in vocabulary (number of different words used) between an 
U.S. television series, and a British one; at least it was the case some
years ago; you need far less words to follow an U.S. series... On the
contrary, due to her poor imagination, an Agatha Christie novel can be
used for english beginners (because she always does the same thing),
while a John Dickson Carr will be more challenging.

There is not such a dramatic difference in french: beautifully written
french chooses better words, and organizes them better; but the words
are the same. As usual, the difference is not in erudition (number of
words), but in rules: the sentences constructed.

> 
> - i think you're drawing perhaps too bright a line.
> new connotations for particular words crop up all the time, especially
> in small groups.  i'm sure the one-word private joke is a common
> experience in many languages.  i can recall a few from germany.
> schädelbräu comes to mind.

In french, the creation is more with small sentences, than with
overloading words. And new words are constructed by etymology (just a
new specimen placed in the already established evolution tree) and by
making a proper name a common one.

Well, we are far off...

-- 
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[tlaronde]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:55:57PM -0400, Burton Samograd wrote:
> > so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does.
>
> Sounds a bit like emacs :)

emacs plan9 manpage is one of my preferred. I do like the laconic:

BUGS

Yes.

and I use sam...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Uriel]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:18 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure
> would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll
> the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit
> from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah,
> Plan 9 doesn't use a lot of config files, but Acme is one of the most
> complex bits of software we've got. This could allow the addition of
> new functionality (like a switch to make Undo/Redo warp-to-location)
> while still maintaining Curmudgeon Mode (triggered by not having an
> acme.conf).

Rob can predict the future and already answered to this a few days ago
in golang-dev:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/golang-dev/ov2CtuwmNmM/QpOZvsGCBFkJ

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 07:32:41 -0400
Anthony Sorace <a@9srv.net> wrote:

> On May 31, 2012, at 0:10, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>
> > This "proper" English is not the language of the English people...
>
> "The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their
> children to speak it. They spell it so abominably that no man can teach
> himself what it sounds like. It is impossible for an Englishman to open
> his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him."
> --George Bernard Shaw
>
>

I'll agree to the hate part. TBH I hated the word "snarf" the moment I
encountered it, but I didn't have to think at all to see how it fitted
and my hate was quickly left behind. Then again, perhaps this quote
would have been a more appropriate thing to post when snarf came up,
rather than my ramblings.

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:49:38 -0400
erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> > Some people would love warp-to-location for Undo/Redo, some I'm sure
> > would hate it. Some people can't stand that up/down arrow keys scroll
> > the page rather than move the cursor (I'm not one). Acme might benefit
> > from a config file in $home/lib/acme.conf or something. Yeah yeah, [...]
>
> i think the key here is that acme has reached the stage where if there were
> version numbers, we'd be restricted to fiddling the 5th digit.  acme is great,
> but i think in terms of developing new ideas, it's time to move on.
>
> i'd like to see a new editor that builds on acme.  the feature i'd like to see
> is support for images and layouts.  the design element i'd like to see is
> lots of little programs rather than one big acme.  so edit/win, edit/edit,
> edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently
> does.

I'd like to see acme split up. We already have page, we already have a
shell window. What I want to see is a 1-file editor, 1-dir file lister
(very simple), and a 1-page web browser. Put those with an acme-style
rio (we can call it canal), and give all the apps right-click plumb and
middle-click execute as appropriate. That would be my ideal project
environment. We may be talking about the same thing but where you're
saying "a new editor" I'm approaching it with the idea of enhancing
the system and removing the need for a complex editor altogether.

On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Connor Lane Smith]

Hey,

On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
> their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
> well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.

Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a
multi-file editor? You may be able to approximate them by looping eds,
but that way you lose most of the benefits anyway. Like display
editing, and undo.

cls

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Stephen Wiley]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 700 bytes --]


On Jun 2, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
> ...
> 
> On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
> their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
> well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.
> 
> -- 
> This is obviously some strange usage of the 
> word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.
> 

One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps)

Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels together...

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 995 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

On Sat Jun  2 21:35:19 EDT 2012, cls@lubutu.com wrote:
> Hey,
>
> On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
> > their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
> > well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.
>
> Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a
> multi-file editor? You may be able to approximate them by looping eds,
> but that way you lose most of the benefits anyway. Like display
> editing, and undo.

+1.

also, when working on a multi-file program, like say the kernel,
i find it helpful to be able to work through a problem without
having to think about the interface.

to some extent, the question boils down to what is the editor
and what is the window system.  and if we were purists we'd
ditch rio and run acme directly on the screen.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 3 June 2012 02:40, Stephen Wiley <swwiley@gmail.com> wrote:
> One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all
> grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of
> the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps)
>
> Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels
> together...

I remember reading this being cited as one of the reasons why sam's
"windows within a window" flayer approach is preferred amongst long
time users. In my opinion, if the window manager is having difficulty
managing windows, it isn't doing a very good job. Instead of resorting
to handling windowing within each and every application, we ought to
treat the source of the problem. That may be by making rio group
similar labels, but I'm inclined to think that a "canal" -- a tiling
window manager, effectively -- would be a better approach in the long
run.

cls

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Bruce Ellis]

shut up and back to work. nothing to see here.

On 3 June 2012 11:53, Connor Lane Smith <cls@lubutu.com> wrote:
> On 3 June 2012 02:40, Stephen Wiley <swwiley@gmail.com> wrote:
>> One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all
>> grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of
>> the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps)
>>
>> Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels
>> together...
>
> I remember reading this being cited as one of the reasons why sam's
> "windows within a window" flayer approach is preferred amongst long
> time users. In my opinion, if the window manager is having difficulty
> managing windows, it isn't doing a very good job. Instead of resorting
> to handling windowing within each and every application, we ought to
> treat the source of the problem. That may be by making rio group
> similar labels, but I'm inclined to think that a "canal" -- a tiling
> window manager, effectively -- would be a better approach in the long
> run.
>
> cls
>



--
Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Richard Miller]

> and if we were purists we'd
> ditch rio and run acme directly on the screen

I tried this for a while when I was first starting to use plan 9.
It didn't work out because essentials like page and mothra didn't
fit in acme.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Connor Lane Smith]

On 3 June 2012 05:03, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:
> shut up and back to work. nothing to see here.

I did not say this. I am not here.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 02:33:19 +0100
Connor Lane Smith <cls@lubutu.com> wrote:

> Hey,
>
> On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
> > their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
> > well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.
>
> Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a
> multi-file editor?

No. They precisely are a case of looping ed, or to be more exact,
looping sam -d. The regexp matches only the name, exactly as the glob
in for(f in <glob>). If you really want a regexp to match file names in
the shell you have `{ls | grep <re>}.

> You may be able to approximate them by looping eds,
> but that way you lose most of the benefits anyway. Like display
> editing, and undo.

The X and Y commands are not display editing.

I think you have a point with undo, but I'm ambivalent about it.
Undoing the results of an X or Y command undoes the change in every
file. There's no reviewing each change individually, as you could if
your loop made backup files for example, or if you used a versioning
system. You could of course use a versioning system before running the
X or Y loop in your editor, but what I'm saying is using those commands
puts a great big block in your undo history. You could goof quite badly
by undoing one file too far and then saving and closing others, for
example, and *that* leads me strongly to the opinion that I'd rather
throw away my undo history than be caught out in such a way.

The more I think about the issues multi-file editing brings to undo the
less I like it. That's two reasons I have to dislike multi-file editors
now, the other being putting a window system in the editor instead of
putting the editor in a window (and operating) system.

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 02:53:21 +0100
Connor Lane Smith <cls@lubutu.com> wrote:

> On 3 June 2012 02:40, Stephen Wiley <swwiley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > One thing that I can see is that the 40 billion windows you open are all
> > grouped together and don't get in your way when using other apps. (One of
> > the things I like about osx is that it does that with all the apps)
> >
> > Though I guess you could script rio to group things with similar labels
> > together...
>
> I remember reading this being cited as one of the reasons why sam's
> "windows within a window" flayer approach is preferred amongst long
> time users. In my opinion, if the window manager is having difficulty
> managing windows, it isn't doing a very good job. Instead of resorting
> to handling windowing within each and every application, we ought to
> treat the source of the problem. That may be by making rio group
> similar labels, but I'm inclined to think that a "canal" -- a tiling
> window manager, effectively -- would be a better approach in the long
> run.

And I'm thinking of nested window managers of differing types according
to the user's choice. I guess I didn't make that clear, judging by this
and all the following posts in this subthread. ;)

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> > On 3 June 2012 02:12, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > > On a related note, what is the point of multi-file editors? I can see
> > > their use with a primitive OS, but given ed and a shell with loops...
> > > well I'd like to see what remains easier in a multi-file editor.
> >
> > Don't sam's X and Y commands demonstrate the usefulness of a
> > multi-file editor?
>
> No. They precisely are a case of looping ed, or to be more exact,
> looping sam -d. The regexp matches only the name, exactly as the glob
> in for(f in <glob>). If you really want a regexp to match file names in
> the shell you have `{ls | grep <re>}.

i think you're ignoring the fact that any X command can be undone
by a single u command.  this isn't just window dressing.  (sorry.)
as you note, i can repeat {X ...; oops; u} as many times as necessary
then save all with X:':w.

how do you propose accompishing multi-file undo without a multi-file
editor?

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 23:15:51 -0400
erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> i think you're ignoring the fact that any X command can be undone
> by a single u command.  this isn't just window dressing.  (sorry.)
> as you note, i can repeat {X ...; oops; u} as many times as necessary
> then save all with X:':w.
>
> how do you propose accompishing multi-file undo without a multi-file
> editor?

I'll admit I don't have anything quite as convenient as that for an
immediate undo. I'd put a cp in the shell loop and for undo: for(f in
*.orig) {mv $f `{echo $f | sed 's/.orig$//'}}. Or use a scm, e.g. git
reset --hard HEAD.


--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> I'll admit I don't have anything quite as convenient as that for an
> immediate undo. I'd put a cp in the shell loop and for undo: for(f in
> *.orig) {mv $f `{echo $f | sed 's/.orig$//'}}. Or use a scm, e.g. git
> reset --hard HEAD.

this is significantly more complicated for the user, and it doesn't
provide the same functinality.  u in sam or acme can undo an
arbitrary number of times.  you'd need an even more complicated
solution to undo two X commands, and in order to interact nicely
with external undo, *ever* edit would need to be saved externally.

no thanks.  what we've got is better.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 08:42:11 -0400
erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> > I'll admit I don't have anything quite as convenient as that for an
> > immediate undo. I'd put a cp in the shell loop and for undo: for(f in
> > *.orig) {mv $f `{echo $f | sed 's/.orig$//'}}. Or use a scm, e.g. git
> > reset --hard HEAD.
>
> this is significantly more complicated for the user, and it doesn't
> provide the same functinality.  u in sam or acme can undo an
> arbitrary number of times.  you'd need an even more complicated
> solution to undo two X commands, and in order to interact nicely
> with external undo, *ever* edit would need to be saved externally.
>
> no thanks.  what we've got is better.

I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea
of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I
guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor
or the editor is part of the window system.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea
> of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I
> guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor
> or the editor is part of the window system.

right!

i'd also add that a program is much easier to reuse than a function
within a program.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1035 bytes --]

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:58 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> > I see your point, I guess I can accept that. I still object to the idea
> > of a whole other suite of programs just to run within the editor, but I
> > guess it's immaterial whether the window system is part of the editor
> > or the editor is part of the window system.
>
> right!
>
> i'd also add that a program is much easier to reuse than a function
> within a program.
>
> - erik
>
>
Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and
if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they
may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)

As an example:
I'm a rather big fan of systems like beanstalkd over say an AMQP
implementation because beanstalkd's core is in a line base text protocol,
and you can write a client for it in a shell if you really wanted to (it's
trivial, I've done it in ZSH).   I can't say the same for AMQP
implementations or JMS etc.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1502 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Gorka Guardiola]

>
> Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and
> if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they may
> not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)
>

I think type systems have their use but do not help much at the borders
(I/O) of the program.

Reminds me of this paragraph in our paper (sorry for the autoquote)

http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/12/6/7109

"The most usual mistake is to argue that synthetic files do not provide
types and/or type checking, for example, when used to execute commands
or to exchange data represented as text. It may not seem so, but type-checking
does not help much regarding correctness of the requests made and/or
data retrieved.
Note that clients and servers may be written in different programming
languages.
Some will be strongly typed, some not. Those that are typed may have
different, incompatible, type systems.
Synthetic file servers must check data written for validity, like an OS
kernel or a network server would. If the request made is invalid, an error
is raised. It does not really matter in practice if the error is due
to type checking
or due to an invalid request. If the response given by a server is not
correct, the
client of the server is responsible for checking it for validity and
acting accordingly.
What we have seen in practice, if that when the user makes a mistake, the device
raises an error, and the user tries again; this has never turned out
to be a problem."

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1892 bytes --]

On Friday, June 8, 2012, Gorka Guardiola wrote:

> >
> > Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages
> and
> > if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they
> may
> > not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)
> >
>
> I think type systems have their use but do not help much at the borders
> (I/O) of the program.
>
>
If only more people understood this they'd realize that it's important to
understand how things get marshalled between programs.  Types are internal
only, but may help drive marshaling.  Java Beans make me gassy.


> Reminds me of this paragraph in our paper (sorry for the autoquote)
>
> http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/12/6/7109
>
> "The most usual mistake is to argue that synthetic files do not provide
> types and/or type checking, for example, when used to execute commands
> or to exchange data represented as text. It may not seem so, but
> type-checking
> does not help much regarding correctness of the requests made and/or
> data retrieved.
> Note that clients and servers may be written in different programming
> languages.
> Some will be strongly typed, some not. Those that are typed may have
> different, incompatible, type systems.
> Synthetic file servers must check data written for validity, like an OS
> kernel or a network server would. If the request made is invalid, an error
> is raised. It does not really matter in practice if the error is due
> to type checking
> or due to an invalid request. If the response given by a server is not
> correct, the
> client of the server is responsible for checking it for validity and
> acting accordingly.
> What we have seen in practice, if that when the user makes a mistake, the
> device
> raises an error, and the user tries again; this has never turned out
> to be a problem."
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2340 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages and
> if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they
> may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)

the unix model is that files are typeless.  or at most the linker refuses to read
files it can't read.  before unix, oses typically had file types
enforced by the operating system.

while the bell labs incination to be typeless has worked very well for files,
it has turned out that you really want types for programming languages.

i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea.  but maybe
others have?

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:44:35 -0400
erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com> wrote:

> i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea.  but maybe
> others have?

I certainly haven't, and I wish the HTTP standards idiots would adopt
the unix position in this case; the content-type header needs to be
parodied, vilified, and expunged with prejudice. Here is a mild example
of what happens when it goes wrong:
http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/UUOC.html

The problem there is the document is iso-8859-1 (and has been for many
years), but the content-type header contains "charset=utf-8". Mothra
and Abaco get it right. Mothra ignores content-type and relies entirely
on content-sniffing. I assume Abaco either does the same or allows the
HTML to override the HTTP. Based on previous experience I expect Safari
also gets it right.

Firefox, Chrome, Opera, and Surf (webkit) all get it wrong, taking the
content-type header as Word of God. What business does a HTTP server
have in knowing the types of the files stored on it? How superstitious
do you need to be to believe that a web server has accurate knowledge
of the type of every file it serves? How impractical must you be to
think any file type which is difficult to determine from its content
(much less its file name) will ever be presented as something to be
displayed by a web browser??? And yet Firefox, as I recall, actually
won't do anything useful in the absence of a content-type header. (It's
been a while, but I think it assumes everything is HTML, even if it's
actually a gif.) To cut a long rant short, I'm staggered. I'm almost
terrified to think that highly educated 21st-century human beings are
capable of the sheer depth of unreason necessary to support the notion
that a web server has perfect knowledge of the type of every file it
might serve, or that this knowledge is even necessary!

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1584 bytes --]

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:44 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com>wrote:

> > Yes, which makes one wonder about type systems in programming languages
> and
> > if they're any better than documented conventions of I/O.  (i think they
> > may not be, but they serve some documentation purposes all their own)
>
> the unix model is that files are typeless.  or at most the linker refuses
> to read
> files it can't read.  before unix, oses typically had file types
> enforced by the operating system.
>
> while the bell labs incination to be typeless has worked very well for
> files,
> it has turned out that you really want types for programming languages.
>
> i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea.
>  but maybe
> others have?
>

I can tell you that the "Big Data Analytics" explosion that's been going on
that is creating lots of jobs for data scientists, has an awful lot to do
with the fact that files on a filesystem are unstructured or "untyped"
(without a schema).

On systems like iOS, applications don't expose a file system to the end
user but instead apps that work with PDFs can be used to forward those
documents to other applications that understand PDFs.  This corresponds
more to "data types".  The type-less mode is more general, and the typed
mode seems easier to reason about.

In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling
unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data
in a way that it's not a problem anymore.

Dave

>
> - erik
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2194 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling
> unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data
> in a way that it's not a problem anymore.

i don't know what you're saying here.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> on content-sniffing. I assume Abaco either does the same or allows the
> HTML to override the HTTP. Based on previous experience I expect Safari
> also gets it right.

abaco gets it right on accident.  webfs isn't capable of dealing
with the http charset so it's simply ignored.  this causes a number
of pages to be misinterpreted.

regardless of what one thinks of the standard, the header charset
takes precidence!  see http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/dec2002/
it sucks, but it's better to follow standards than to invent one's own.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[cinap_lenrek]

webfs does provide the contenttype info. and abaco reads it.
abaco also implements the document charset/encoding override
in the document.

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:05:06 -0700
David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:44 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com>wrote:
>
> > i haven't seen any evidence that strongly typed files are a good idea.
> >  but maybe
> > others have?
> >
>
> I can tell you that the "Big Data Analytics" explosion that's been going on
> that is creating lots of jobs for data scientists, has an awful lot to do
> with the fact that files on a filesystem are unstructured or "untyped"
> (without a schema).

Most of this is passing me by, but I would really like a search engine
for my own hard drive, if that's part of what you're talking about. I
guess with a search engine types matter, but there are very few file
types you'd want to read, view, or watch which can't be determined by
looking at the first part of the file. Within the file each type has
its own structure. I don't really understand what's being said by
"unstructured" here unless they want programs to handle all types
without recognising each one individually. Even then I don't see the
problem because many file types are just containers anyway, but I
should probably stop there as I really don't know what comes of
analytics and I don't have big data for any purposes other than to be
searched.

>
> On systems like iOS, applications don't expose a file system to the end
> user but instead apps that work with PDFs can be used to forward those
> documents to other applications that understand PDFs.  This corresponds
> more to "data types".  The type-less mode is more general, and the typed
> mode seems easier to reason about.

It sounds like a weaker version of old PalmOS which had databases not
files and each db had a type associating it with an app. I think I
prefer the weaker version although I will probably dissect some of my
numerous Palm dbs if I find the time. I'd like to see how they're
structured.

>
> In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling
> unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data
> in a way that it's not a problem anymore.

I will be very, VERY interested if they manage to find something that
actually works, considering the last attempt was XML. ;) Even if you
don't count XML as an attempt at a universal structure, it's certainly
used for that, a lot.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 02:00:37 -0400
erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> regardless of what one thinks of the standard, the header charset
> takes precidence!  see http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/dec2002/
> it sucks, but it's better to follow standards than to invent one's own.

Regardless of how unjust a law is, it must be obeyed, for it is the
Law! Right? Hah! I'm one of those people who believe citizens have a
duty to oppose unjust laws. How much more so then should we oppose
standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no
purpose?

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

> Regardless of how unjust a law is, it must be obeyed, for it is the
> Law! Right? Hah! I'm one of those people who believe citizens have a
> duty to oppose unjust laws. How much more so then should we oppose
> standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no
> purpose?

standards aren't laws.  there's no moral component at all.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> How much more so then should we oppose
> standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no
> purpose?

You're getting lost.  The MIME standard (RFC 1341, June 1992) is what
you started criticising and you're overlooking (a) that a phenomenal
amount of effort went into establishing that standard; (b) that it has
been of great service for many years; (c) that mailers like Outlook
that continue to take liberties with the MIME headers have facilitated
in no minor manner the ditribution of Trojan Horses and (d) no one has
yet found it necessary or advisable to replace the MIME standard with
a better one.

I grant that back in 1992 one could not have foreseen all the
possibilities that MIME ought to have addressed, but all things
considered, I think the result was little short of miraculous.  That
you can criticise one aspect that in fact is not even at fault seems a
bit facitious, at least to me.  By all means propose an anlternative,
but don't expect to find too many followers when you do.

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> standards aren't laws.  there's no moral component at all.

Politics (insufficient resources) can put moral components into
anything.  But most technical standard organisations do aim to avoid
making the type of short sighted judgements that lead to resource
depletion.  Then the market comes along to create artificial shortages
so as to increase value, giving politics the opening they seem to be
waiting for.

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 04:29:15PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
>
> (a) that a phenomenal
> amount of effort went into establishing that standard;

Then it belongs on someone's refrigerator, next to a participation
award.  Bad decisions aren't less bad just because a lot of people
worked hard to make them.

> (b) that it has been of great service for many years;

Are you claiming it is good through tenure, which is obviously a
fallacy, or are you actually calling this catastrophe of a standard
"great"?

> (c) that mailers like Outlook that continue to take liberties with
> the MIME headers have facilitated in no minor manner the
> ditribution of Trojan Horses

This is the technological equivalent of ranting about the September 11th
attacks.  Are you telling us that ignoring a charset header is going to
cause webfs to install malicious software on plan 9?

> and (d) no one has
> yet found it necessary or advisable to replace the MIME standard with
> a better one.

Incorrect.  I have often found it necessary to remove or ignore the MIME
standard, and everyone who has spent any time working with MIME content
has found it advisable to replace it with anything -- such as alcohol,
suicide, or weeping into pillows.

> I grant that back in 1992 one could not have foreseen all the
> possibilities that MIME ought to have addressed, but all things
> considered, I think the result was little short of miraculous.

The only thing that is miraculous is that it works at all.  MIME is
still on 1.0 because they did such a piss-poor job of specifying their
outlandish nightmare they've now realized it's impossible even to
improve it at all. Nathaniel Borenstein has admitted in public that it
is embarassing to him.

MIME is a shitty workaround (badly) designed to cram non-text data into
a text-based protocol.  Instead of using proper transfer protocols to
transfer files, some morons decided to shove binary data into text-based
messaging.  When the web crowd decided they, too, would like to shove
unlikely things into a text based protocol, MIME was the natural answer.

It's probably going to be just as impossible to kill MIME as it is to
kill all kinds of other entrenched awful things in the IT industry, but
don't let MIME's wide distribution fool you.  It's a bad standard,
written badly, used by bad people to do dumb things.  It's best to
involve yourself as little as possible with it, and if your life is even
marginally improved by ignoring something MIME has to say, have at it.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:29:15 +0200
Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:

> > How much more so then should we oppose
> > standards which benefit nobody while requiring a lot of work to no
> > purpose?
>
> You're getting lost.  The MIME standard (RFC 1341, June 1992) is what
> you started criticising

Wrong. I don't care how content type is determined, I care WHERE it is DICTATED. Pretending the server has magic knowledge in this department is beyond idiotic.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> Are you claiming it is good through tenure, which is obviously a
> fallacy, or are you actually calling this catastrophe of a standard
> "great"?

You're not offering a comparison, so, yes, I'm calling it "good".  So,
apparently, do innumerable users, again, maybe for want of a better
product.  Twenty years old and no one has successfully dislodged it,
what would you call it?

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:51:37 +0200
Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:

> > standards aren't laws.  there's no moral component at all.
>
> Politics (insufficient resources) can put moral components into
> anything.  But most technical standard organisations do aim to avoid
> making the type of short sighted judgements that lead to resource
> depletion.  Then the market comes along to create artificial shortages
> so as to increase value, giving politics the opening they seem to be
> waiting for.

Looks like technical standards organisations viewed sysadmins (or web
site admins) as underworked and overpaid, on this particular issue. I
think it was some overpaid dick with a persuasive mouth pushing his
favourite idea of OS-enforced file types.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Lucio De Re]

> MIME is a shitty workaround (badly) designed to cram non-text data into
> a text-based protocol.  Instead of using proper transfer protocols to
> transfer files, some morons decided to shove binary data into text-based
> messaging.  When the web crowd decided they, too, would like to shove
> unlikely things into a text based protocol, MIME was the natural answer.

And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives
just simply haven't gained any ground at all?

++L

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 05:53:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
>
> And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives
> just simply haven't gained any ground at all?
>

Since you seem to be the sort of idiot who can't differentiate technical
quality from distribution volume, I'll leave you to wallow in your bad
reasoning and unwarranted self-assurance.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

On Sat Jun  9 12:32:20 EDT 2012, khm-9@intma.in wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 05:53:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> >
> > And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives
> > just simply haven't gained any ground at all?
> >
>
> Since you seem to be the sort of idiot who can't differentiate technical
> quality from distribution volume, I'll leave you to wallow in your bad
> reasoning and unwarranted self-assurance.

there's no place for name calling or disrespect.  please stop.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 12:52:17 -0400
erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> On Sat Jun  9 12:32:20 EDT 2012, khm-9@intma.in wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 09, 2012 at 05:53:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > >
> > > And you see no contradiction that the seemingly obvious alternatives
> > > just simply haven't gained any ground at all?
> > >
> >
> > Since you seem to be the sort of idiot who can't differentiate technical
> > quality from distribution volume, I'll leave you to wallow in your bad
> > reasoning and unwarranted self-assurance.
>
> there's no place for name calling or disrespect.  please stop.
>
> - erik
>

And I used to wonder why some people didn't like this mailing list.

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[hiro]

I respect all you guy's senseless babbling as I'm being a lot more
disrespectful than anyone here (currently installing windows 98). Go
on.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Matthew Veety]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 289 bytes --]

On Jun 9, 2012 2:11 PM, "hiro" <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> I respect all you guy's senseless babbling as I'm being a lot more
> disrespectful than anyone here (currently installing windows 98). Go
> on.
>

I would shit on you for this, but I'm an OpenVMS user.

--
Veety

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 422 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[andrey mirtchovski]

"Don't submit messages containing flames or MIME. Content should be technical."

I'm looking at all of you here!

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 13:03:16 -0600
andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Don't submit messages containing flames or MIME. Content should be technical."
>
> I'm looking at all of you here!
>

I like the "or MIME" part. ;)

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[andrey mirtchovski]

> I like the "or MIME" part. ;)

i forgot to include a reference: http://mail.9fans.net/listinfo/9fans

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[hiro]

Seems like after all there is a dependency hell for windows, too. It's
a slower, but more thorough kind of cancer. Trying to download an
older version of opera (opera 9 works) with internet explorer 5 is
impossible because of web standards. The windows update web site
creates a redirection loop. IE does no not even try to render some
sites, instead there's a neat error popup. The shitty graphic card
can't do 1600x1200. Lots of Installers of modern software use
functions which are not available in win98's dlls (even though the
program itself would possibly run fine).
I successfully installed Half-Life, but it has been patched too far so
support the feature I'm seeking out.

This is what only runs on windows 98 and why I'm going through all the
mess: http://toni.org/a3d/

"flame.exe is an executable file. For security reasons, Google Mail
does not allow you to send this type of file." - oh may

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 351 bytes --]

On Friday, June 8, 2012, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > In fact, the people who will eat the lunch of these people wrangling
> > unstructured data, are the ones that figure out how to structure the data
> > in a way that it's not a problem anymore.
>
> i don't know what you're saying here.


And that is probably for the best

>
> - erik
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 658 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Balwinder S Dheeman]

On 06/10/2012 12:01 PM, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
>> I like the "or MIME" part. ;)
>
> i forgot to include a reference: http://mail.9fans.net/listinfo/9fans

On above said page, it would be nice to have the following as
active/click-able links:

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/FAQ/index.html#browser
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Mouse_vs._keyboard/
http://9fans.net/archive

--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Jason Catena]

Kurt H Maier: Are you claiming it is good through tenure, which is
obviously a fallacy, or are you actually calling this catastrophe of a
standard "great"?

Lucio De Re: You're not offering a comparison, so, yes, I'm calling
it "good".  So, apparently, do innumerable users, again, maybe for
want of a better product.  Twenty years old and no one has success-
fully dislodged it, what would you call it?


Windows.  Tenure and dislodging and number of users don't make
anything more suited to purpose or well-designed. "Great" is subjective
anyway, and better alternatives are usually available.

We've drifted quite a bit from the subject line.

Jason Catena

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[erik quanstrom]

On Sat Jun  2 20:45:23 EDT 2012, bakul@bitblocks.com wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 01:31:04 BST Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm>  wrote:
> > Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a
> > good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme
> > has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree.
>
> Eric suggested creating a new editor built on acme.  I did
> think "sacme" would make a good name for a son of acme --
> emacs rearranged : )

since the clone of the original was called "wily", i'd suggest
"e.".

- erik

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:43:57 -0700
Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 01:31:04 BST Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm>  wrote:
> > Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a
> > good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme
> > has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree.
>
> Eric suggested creating a new editor built on acme.  I did
> think "sacme" would make a good name for a son of acme --
> emacs rearranged : )
>

Ah yeah, nice. ;)

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Bakul Shah]

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 01:31:04 BST Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm>  wrote:
> Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a
> good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme
> has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree.

Eric suggested creating a new editor built on acme.  I did
think "sacme" would make a good name for a son of acme --
emacs rearranged : )

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:40:11 +0300
Antonio Barrones <antonio.fin@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 31, 10:01 pm, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
> > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:55:57PM -0400, Burton Samograd wrote:
> > > > so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does.
> >
> > > Sounds a bit like emacs :)
> >
> > emacs plan9 manpage is one of my preferred. I do like the laconic:
> >
> > BUGS
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > and I use sam...
>
> (off-topic)  I see emacs more as a Lisp environment than an editor as sam o vi.

Yeah, it's almost a successor to Lisp machines (except it's a not a
good lisp, I'm told). I call it a desktop environment, myself. :) Acme
has been called Plan 9's emacs and I can't entirely disagree.

--
This is obviously some strange usage of the
word "simple" that I was previously unaware of.

Re: [9fans] Heresy alert, Zerox -> Clone

[Antonio Barrones]

On May 31, 10:01 pm, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 02:55:57PM -0400, Burton Samograd wrote:
> > > so edit/win, edit/edit, edit/dir might all be little programs that do part of what acme currently does.
>
> > Sounds a bit like emacs :)
>
> emacs plan9 manpage is one of my preferred. I do like the laconic:
>
> BUGS
>
> Yes.
>
> and I use sam...

(off-topic)  I see emacs more as a Lisp environment than an editor as sam o vi.

Antonio