Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

i only have a pci card, but someone with an agp card and a machine that
allows bios-controlled agp bandwidth could eliminate some possibilities.
if it's bus limited, then the total performance should be linear in agp
bus speed, right?  of course we still wouldn't know which direction on
the bus was limiting.

perhaps it's time to add another machine to the second-hand hardware collection.
;-)

pci-x (1.066G/s) has the same bandwidth as PCIe x4 (1G/s).
PCIe SLI = 2 * 16x = 8G/s, which ought to be enough for just about anyone.

- erik

On Sun Apr 30 13:13:21 CDT 2006, steve@quintile.net wrote:
> > Frame buffer memory is very very slow to read from,
> > and not just on nvidia.  When I did some timings six years
> > ago, I found that reading from frame buffer memory
> > was slower than reading from disk.  I'm sure the situation
> > hasn't gotten better.  It's not on the fast path for any
> > other system, so the vendors just don't care.
>
> I may be talking rubbish but I understood this is a fundamental
> problem with reading VGA memory over the PCI bus. VGA cards are
> designed for fast writes and not fast reads.
>
> People have been very interested in using the GCPUs in graphics cards
> to do video processing (to disk rather than for display) but the limiting
> factor seems to have been the speed at which data can be read back.
> I do hear that some cards are appearing with dual PCIX which will allow
> symetric access speeds to the frame buffer.
>
> -Steve
>

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Paul Lalonde]

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8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
computation using that GPU...
PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.

Paul

On 30-Apr-06, at 5:52 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> i only have a pci card, but someone with an agp card and a machine
> that
> allows bios-controlled agp bandwidth could eliminate some
> possibilities.
> if it's bus limited, then the total performance should be linear in
> agp
> bus speed, right?  of course we still wouldn't know which direction on
> the bus was limiting.
>
> perhaps it's time to add another machine to the second-hand
> hardware collection.
> ;-)
>
> pci-x (1.066G/s) has the same bandwidth as PCIe x4 (1G/s).
> PCIe SLI = 2 * 16x = 8G/s, which ought to be enough for just about
> anyone.
>
> - erik
>
> On Sun Apr 30 13:13:21 CDT 2006, steve@quintile.net wrote:
>>> Frame buffer memory is very very slow to read from,
>>> and not just on nvidia.  When I did some timings six years
>>> ago, I found that reading from frame buffer memory
>>> was slower than reading from disk.  I'm sure the situation
>>> hasn't gotten better.  It's not on the fast path for any
>>> other system, so the vendors just don't care.
>>
>> I may be talking rubbish but I understood this is a fundamental
>> problem with reading VGA memory over the PCI bus. VGA cards are
>> designed for fast writes and not fast reads.
>>
>> People have been very interested in using the GCPUs in graphics cards
>> to do video processing (to disk rather than for display) but the
>> limiting
>> factor seems to have been the speed at which data can be read back.
>> I do hear that some cards are appearing with dual PCIX which will
>> allow
>> symetric access speeds to the frame buffer.
>>
>> -Steve
>>

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[9fans] Re: nvidia scrolling performance

[Paweł Lasek]

On 5/1/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>....
> PCIe SLI = 2 * 16x = 8G/s, which ought to be enough for just about anyone.

Looks like I have to disrupt some pleasant assumptions....

PCI-Express cards don't give a damn about the number of lines that are
connected ("1x" means one pci-express line), the only thing it changes
is the transfer speed.

And except for workstation (traditional sense of specialized mb and so
on) or special gaming motherboards I have yet to hear about a SLI
motherboard with 32 PCI-express lines.... (Standard PC motherboards
have 20 lines, latest PowerMacs have at least 32 lines - 1*16x 1*8x
2*4x + 4x ones have 8x physical connectors to use 8x cards in 4x mode,
maybe more - need to visit an Apple Store...)

Actually, when you use the switch (hardware or software) to change
into sli mode, you split 8 lines from "normal" port to "second",
making them 2* 8x ports :)

Of course, using special chips (like workstation line of Nforce, hard
to get from what I heard, allows you to build up to *LOT* of lines
:P), you can get the required 32 lines to get both cards working at
2*16x (PCI-Express defines single ports with up to 32x lines)

Of course, each line is 250 MiB/s bi-directional full-duplex (On
PCI-Express, reading from video memory is fast enough, shortly
speaking - it's the core factor for nVidia/ATI low-budget cards like
"Turbo Cache" and so on....)

> - erik

Over 4 years of trying to buy a new computer - At least I learned a
little from it :D
(Basically all my hardware is n-hand.... and people ask why it
sometimes it just doesn't work!? Not to mention that it's hard to get
i440bx compatible sdrams these days...)

--
Paul Lasek

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

perhaps there is some database-related literature that would be helpful?
SQL is the closest analog i can think of.

- erik

On Fri May  5 12:33:48 CDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5-May-06, at 10:22 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
> >
> > has anyone considered a declaritive language for this sort of  
> > programming?
> > or are shaders too irregular for that sort of thing?
> 
> Certainly that's part of what we're considering at Neoptica.  Shaders  
> aren't nearly as irregular as I used to think they could be.
> We're working on GPU/SPU languages & synchronization mechanism that  
> let the user specify what (declaratively) and let us generate the  
> how.  But the literature is sparse, particularly in this domain.
> 
> Paul

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

the abstract for glift contains this gem:

	Glift enables GPU programmers to separate algorithms from data structure 
	definitions; thereby greatly simplifying algorithmic development [...]

has anyone considered a declaritive language for this sort of programming?
or are shaders too irregular for that sort of thing?

- erik

On Fri May  5 11:23:05 CDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
> 
> I'm really hoping that we can find a way to get our users off the C/C+ 
> + bandwagon (and that includes the high-level shading languages as  
> well) and using something that can express the required computations  
> more naturally.  There are some promissing-looking functional  
> approaches, but there's a huge barrier to adoption if it doesn't look  
> like C.
> 
> Paul
> 

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Paul Lalonde]

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On 5-May-06, at 10:22 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
> has anyone considered a declaritive language for this sort of  
> programming?
> or are shaders too irregular for that sort of thing?

Certainly that's part of what we're considering at Neoptica.  Shaders  
aren't nearly as irregular as I used to think they could be.
We're working on GPU/SPU languages & synchronization mechanism that  
let the user specify what (declaratively) and let us generate the  
how.  But the literature is sparse, particularly in this domain.

Paul

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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

conversly, isn't doing gpu work on the cpu cpu abuse? ;-)
i mean we've got to have the proper caste system for processors
and unwashed masses of special assemblers.

- erik

On Fri May  5 10:57:55 CDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:

> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real  
> computation :-)
> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain  
> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go  
> around in the Cell's SPUs.
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
> 
> > if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a  
> > cpu. ;-)
> >
> > - erik
> >
> >> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
> >> computation using that GPU...
> >> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
> >>
> 

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[David Leimbach]

On 5/5/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> conversly, isn't doing gpu work on the cpu cpu abuse? ;-)
> i mean we've got to have the proper caste system for processors
> and unwashed masses of special assemblers.
>
> - erik
>

I don't see it as abuse, just optimization.

> On Fri May  5 10:57:55 CDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
>
> > Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real
> > computation :-)
> > But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain
> > scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go
> > around in the Cell's SPUs.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
> >
> > > if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a
> > > cpu. ;-)
> > >
> > > - erik
> > >
> > >> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
> > >> computation using that GPU...
> > >> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
> > >>
> >
>

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a cpu. ;-)

- erik

> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real  
> computation using that GPU...
> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
> 

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Paul Lalonde]

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Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real  
computation :-)
But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain  
scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go  
around in the Cell's SPUs.

Paul

On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a  
> cpu. ;-)
>
> - erik
>
>> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
>> computation using that GPU...
>> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
>>

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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[David Leimbach]

On 5/5/06, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real
> computation :-)
> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain
> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go
> around in the Cell's SPUs.
>

Eh, nvidia's working on making the GPUs more accessible (via
compilers, kind of like Cell) for more general purpose computation.

The problem with FPGA, GPU, and "non-local" coprocessing cores is
usually the moving of data to them fast enough.  Cell shouldn't have
this problem and with the new hypertransport stuff coming out, it
looks like one can easilly do NUMA like things inter-chassis too.

I don't know if this is cost effective, but streaming parallelism to
special coprocessors can be a big win in HPC.

Dave

> Paul
>
> On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
> > if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a
> > cpu. ;-)
> >
> > - erik
> >
> >> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
> >> computation using that GPU...
> >> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
> >>
>
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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Paul Lalonde]

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The GPGPU stuff that is making the computation much more accessible,  
but at least in my field (games - uh make that real-time interactive  
graphical simulations) if you give me more throughput near video ram,  
I'll be sorely tempted to (surprise) use it to make more or better  
pictures.

The interesting thing about the GPU is that it exposes a (fairly)  
strict streaming computation model in which the user really only has  
control over the computation kernel, and very little control over the  
iteration construct.  That makes using the high levels of parallelism  
relatively easy and efficient.  The challenge is in expressing non- 
trivial algorithms in streaming ways.  Aaron Lefohn's Glift suite  
(http://graphics.idav.ucdavis.edu/graphics/publications/print_pub? 
pub_id=837) is a nice wrapper around that material for more general  
data structures on the GPU.  The downside is that you had better have  
a C++ compiler that does templates well.

I'm really hoping that we can find a way to get our users off the C/C+ 
+ bandwagon (and that includes the high-level shading languages as  
well) and using something that can express the required computations  
more naturally.  There are some promissing-looking functional  
approaches, but there's a huge barrier to adoption if it doesn't look  
like C.

Paul

On 5-May-06, at 9:01 AM, David Leimbach wrote:

> On 5/5/06, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real
>> computation :-)
>> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain
>> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go
>> around in the Cell's SPUs.
>>
>
> Eh, nvidia's working on making the GPUs more accessible (via
> compilers, kind of like Cell) for more general purpose computation.
>
> The problem with FPGA, GPU, and "non-local" coprocessing cores is
> usually the moving of data to them fast enough.  Cell shouldn't have
> this problem and with the new hypertransport stuff coming out, it
> looks like one can easilly do NUMA like things inter-chassis too.
>
> I don't know if this is cost effective, but streaming parallelism to
> special coprocessors can be a big win in HPC.
>
> Dave
>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>>
>> > if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a
>> > cpu. ;-)
>> >
>> > - erik
>> >
>> >> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
>> >> computation using that GPU...
>> >> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
>> >>
>>
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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[David Leimbach]

> I'm really hoping that we can find a way to get our users off the C/C+
> + bandwagon (and that includes the high-level shading languages as
> well) and using something that can express the required computations
> more naturally.  There are some promissing-looking functional
> approaches, but there's a huge barrier to adoption if it doesn't look
> like C.

DSLs (Domain Specific Languages) aren't as hip as they should be IMO. 
People like to do evil metaprogramming stuff to twist languages into
weird syntactical sugary notation, then want to cry when the compiler
produces some unintelligble error messages about what's going on.

General purpose languages have their place of course... but a language
that lets you work closer to the problem space seems to almost always
produce more elegant code.

If C were everything to everyone, Fortran wouldn't still be in heavy
use in certain circles.

Dave


>
> Paul
>
> On 5-May-06, at 9:01 AM, David Leimbach wrote:
>
> > On 5/5/06, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real
> >> computation :-)
> >> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain
> >> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go
> >> around in the Cell's SPUs.
> >>
> >
> > Eh, nvidia's working on making the GPUs more accessible (via
> > compilers, kind of like Cell) for more general purpose computation.
> >
> > The problem with FPGA, GPU, and "non-local" coprocessing cores is
> > usually the moving of data to them fast enough.  Cell shouldn't have
> > this problem and with the new hypertransport stuff coming out, it
> > looks like one can easilly do NUMA like things inter-chassis too.
> >
> > I don't know if this is cost effective, but streaming parallelism to
> > special coprocessors can be a big win in HPC.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
> >>
> >> > if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a
> >> > cpu. ;-)
> >> >
> >> > - erik
> >> >
> >> >> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
> >> >> computation using that GPU...
> >> >> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
> >> >>
> >>
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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Wes]

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What kind of plan9 kernel would you like to compile:
auth-server
cpu-server
gpu-server

On 5/6/06, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real
> computation :-)
> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain
> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go
> around in the Cell's SPUs.
>
> Paul
>
> On 5-May-06, at 8:46 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
> > if i were doing real computation, i wouldn't use a gpu i'd use a
> > cpu. ;-)
> >
> > - erik
> >
> >> 8G/s? Nowhere near enough.  Enough for text, but try doing real
> >> computation using that GPU...
> >> PS3 is running 25G/s bi-directional.  Those bits move.
> >>
>
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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Ronald G Minnich]

Paul Lalonde wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real  computation 
> :-)
> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain  
> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to go  
> around in the Cell's SPUs.

uh, there's no real difference between GPU computation and SPU 
computation, saving there's more of them SPUs. All the problems apply.

ron

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Paul Lalonde]

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I'm going to claim there is a difference.  The GPU handles all the  
threading issues needed to deal with the parallelism the GPU offers,  
at the cost of a restricted programming model (some random-access  
reads, no random access writes); the SPU offers a more general  
computing model, but you have to handle all the memory movement and  
syncrhonization issues.
You can choose to use the SPU as a GPU with many more registers and  
some extra random-access storage, but more general models can be  
applied, and useful.

Paul

On 5-May-06, at 10:07 AM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> Paul Lalonde wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>> Aw, but I'd claim all that fancy 3-D graphics stuff is real   
>> computation :-)
>> But yeah, GPU abuse for general purpose computation is just plain   
>> scary.  I thank my lucky stars that there is plenty of FLOPS to  
>> go  around in the Cell's SPUs.
>
> uh, there's no real difference between GPU computation and SPU  
> computation, saving there's more of them SPUs. All the problems apply.
>
> ron

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Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

i don't think the extra multiplication has much to do with it.
the system load had esentially zero effect on the drawing time until
both processors were >100% utilization.  at that point, i think that
scheduling, rather than actual cpu usage. (there were occasional long
pauses.)  for moderate loads, the time was +/- 5%.

why does the framebuffer need to be consulted when the background is a known,
solid color?

as far as greyscale fonts go, both cyberbit and code2000 look pretty
good to me.  pelm does not look very good with my monitors large
dot pitch, and allows much less text in the same size window.
i used to use it when i had a better monitor.  also, pelm is fixed-width
and has too many pjws at codepoints that are important to me.

what to you might be slow and ugly might be slow and good looking
to me.  however i'm the one looking at the monitor!

- erik

On Sun Apr 30 10:09:57 CDT 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
> > the only obvious difference i see between the plan 9 driver and the xf86 stuff is
> > that the xf86 stuff tries to buffer dma access a bit.  is ths the key, or should i be looking
> > at something else?
>
> This isn't the nvidia driver.
> The problem is that you're using greyscale fonts.
> That requires dropping into the generic alpha code
> instead of using the boolean alpha code that regular
> character drawing uses.  The boolean alpha code
> avoids some multiplies, which helps a little, and also
> avoids reading from the frame buffer memory, which
> helps a *lot*.
>
> Frame buffer memory is very very slow to read from,
> and not just on nvidia.  When I did some timings six years
> ago, I found that reading from frame buffer memory
> was slower than reading from disk.  I'm sure the situation
> hasn't gotten better.  It's not on the fast path for any
> other system, so the vendors just don't care.
>
> Now that memories have gotten bigger, it might be
> worth keeping a copy of the screen image like in
> the X port, but it's not clear to me how to reconcile
> that with using acceleration.
>
> Greyscale fonts are slow and ugly.  For more than
> occasional use, just don't do it.
>
> Russ
>
>

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Russ Cox]

> why does the framebuffer need to be consulted when the background is a known,
> solid color?

the underlying operation is just plain draw,
and drawing text corresponds to drawing 
solid black through the font (as a mask)
onto the destination image.  if the mask has
fractional alpha, that requires reading the
destination image to do the mixing.

the destination image might in this case 
be a known solid color, but in general it
need not be.

you could address this by adding a fourth argument
to memdraw and then using it inside devdraw
to specify a "read from this instead of the destination"
image.  it's not clear to me that this is worth the bother,
and it makes the interface less clean.  you'd also have
to redo libframe to use stringbg everywhere.

russ

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Artem Letko]

what if we use hardware to do blits with alpha?

-art

On 5/1/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> > why does the framebuffer need to be consulted when the background is a known,
> > solid color?
>
> the underlying operation is just plain draw,
> and drawing text corresponds to drawing
> solid black through the font (as a mask)
> onto the destination image.  if the mask has
> fractional alpha, that requires reading the
> destination image to do the mixing.
>
> the destination image might in this case
> be a known solid color, but in general it
> need not be.
>
> you could address this by adding a fourth argument
> to memdraw and then using it inside devdraw
> to specify a "read from this instead of the destination"
> image.  it's not clear to me that this is worth the bother,
> and it makes the interface less clean.  you'd also have
> to redo libframe to use stringbg everywhere.
>
> russ
>
>

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Russ Cox]

> what if we use hardware to do blits with alpha?

easier said than done.

[9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[erik quanstrom]

i've been using 1280x1024x32 on an nv18 with a greyscale font.
graphics performance is good.  page is able to pan large images
smoothly.  however, for a ~1000x750 window, i get these numbers
with various other load on the system:

	0.00u 0.00s 49.32r 	 cat /sys/games/lib/fortunes		# system is idle
	0.00u 0.00s 50.29r 	 cat /sys/games/lib/fortunes		# load avg of ~ 0.5
	0.00u 0.00s 50.71r 	 cat /sys/games/lib/fortunes		# load avg of ~ 0.9
	0.00u 0.01s 63.46r 	 cat /sys/games/lib/fortunes		# load avg > 1

running the same test with pelm.8, i get

	0.00u 0.00s 1.08r 	 cat /sys/games/lib/fortunes

the only obvious difference i see between the plan 9 driver and the xf86 stuff is
that the xf86 stuff tries to buffer dma access a bit.  is ths the key, or should i be looking
at something else?

- erik

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[jmk]

On Sat Apr 29 17:51:02 EDT 2006, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> ...
> the only obvious difference i see between the plan 9 driver and the xf86 stuff is
> that the xf86 stuff tries to buffer dma access a bit.  is ths the key, or should i be looking
> at something else?
>
> - erik

i think we've all noticed performance issues with the nvidia driver,
but we are at the mercy of the xfree86 code, a different model and
having the time to figure out what's up or a different way of doing
things. we'd all be grateful if you figured out what's wrong. i spent
a little time on it last week after getting the geforce 6600 to work
with a dell 2405fpw but i couldn't see where to make it faster.

--jim

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Russ Cox]

> the only obvious difference i see between the plan 9 driver and the xf86 stuff is
> that the xf86 stuff tries to buffer dma access a bit.  is ths the key, or should i be looking
> at something else?

This isn't the nvidia driver.
The problem is that you're using greyscale fonts.
That requires dropping into the generic alpha code
instead of using the boolean alpha code that regular
character drawing uses.  The boolean alpha code
avoids some multiplies, which helps a little, and also
avoids reading from the frame buffer memory, which
helps a *lot*.

Frame buffer memory is very very slow to read from,
and not just on nvidia.  When I did some timings six years
ago, I found that reading from frame buffer memory
was slower than reading from disk.  I'm sure the situation
hasn't gotten better.  It's not on the fast path for any
other system, so the vendors just don't care.

Now that memories have gotten bigger, it might be
worth keeping a copy of the screen image like in
the X port, but it's not clear to me how to reconcile
that with using acceleration.

Greyscale fonts are slow and ugly.  For more than
occasional use, just don't do it.

Russ

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Steve Simon]

> Frame buffer memory is very very slow to read from,
> and not just on nvidia.  When I did some timings six years
> ago, I found that reading from frame buffer memory
> was slower than reading from disk.  I'm sure the situation
> hasn't gotten better.  It's not on the fast path for any
> other system, so the vendors just don't care.

I may be talking rubbish but I understood this is a fundamental
problem with reading VGA memory over the PCI bus. VGA cards are
designed for fast writes and not fast reads.

People have been very interested in using the GCPUs in graphics cards
to do video processing (to disk rather than for display) but the limiting
factor seems to have been the speed at which data can be read back.
I do hear that some cards are appearing with dual PCIX which will allow
symetric access speeds to the frame buffer.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Ronald G Minnich]

Steve Simon wrote:

> I may be talking rubbish but I understood this is a fundamental
> problem with reading VGA memory over the PCI bus. VGA cards are
> designed for fast writes and not fast reads.

depends.

on pci and AGP it's an issue.
AGP has the assymetric bandwidth built in.

on PCI express, it's supposed to get much better.


> I do hear that some cards are appearing with dual PCIX which will allow
> symetric access speeds to the frame buffer.
>

Note that PCIX is not pci express (PCIe or PCI-e or PCI-E). It's so
confusing. PCIX is PCI-X which is an old, slow bus.

ron

RE: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Nigel Roles]

9fans-bounces+ngr=9fs.org@cse.psu.edu wrote:
> Steve Simon wrote:
> 
>> I may be talking rubbish but I understood this is a fundamental
>> problem with reading VGA memory over the PCI bus. VGA cards are
>> designed for fast writes and not fast reads.
> 
> depends.
> 
> on pci and AGP it's an issue.
> AGP has the assymetric bandwidth built in.
> 
> on PCI express, it's supposed to get much better.
> 
> 
>> I do hear that some cards are appearing with dual PCIX which will
>> allow symetric access speeds to the frame buffer.
>> 
> 
> Note that PCIX is not pci express (PCIe or PCI-e or PCI-E). It's so
> confusing. PCIX is PCI-X which is an old, slow bus.
> 
> ron

PCIX is slow? Is 34Gbps not quick enough for you?

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[Ronald G Minnich]

Nigel Roles wrote:
> 9fans-bounces+ngr=9fs.org@cse.psu.edu wrote:

> PCIX is slow? Is 34Gbps not quick enough for you?

I assume you mean PCIX, not pci-e.

And, no, it's not. YMMV.

ron

Re: [9fans] nvidia scrolling performance

[David Leimbach]

On 5/1/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> Nigel Roles wrote:
> > 9fans-bounces+ngr=9fs.org@cse.psu.edu wrote:
>
> > PCIX is slow? Is 34Gbps not quick enough for you?
>
> I assume you mean PCIX, not pci-e.
>
> And, no, it's not. YMMV.
>
> ron
>
How about that new inter-chassis Hypertransport? :)