From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FA024045 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 05:46:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59D61E409 for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mMee6775a4b239f8cd0dc57264.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id C4834191209F; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:33 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=fastmail.fm header.i=@fastmail.fm header.b=4EJejGOe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b=AfZlsyfT header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=fastmail.fm; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=vic.thacker@fastmail.fm smtp.helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references :date:from:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1715571993; bh=QYfef/Vy6Vg8MxCl csKjEGbye1AH/q6LLIDxYgOUeJ0=; b=huBwHPBdjuePAa/PEy1wOLtbYd/sk/T+ M2oE5fM0taSB25illsISiumb+JNYlkyUdAJQEcSr/gfw53CBkVu7AJYN4nH6e0tC zwuDg8/t23vk5Gte+lo6riu3l5Wb4blZZz0FFjMOWzJwIE80+y4qsANeljUqVlMj pXctSYHimhI= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1715571993; b=KUhLLfKGx7arTpUvt6L1fHY02Dk1hFaP8AuXE2bCENvhoswrFC eeSxdpokyG2D/sERGuqxoMabFfYSl0mdSiUCMzQVlVhrw1Y1VkmeyPTR3UQvr9A8 t9bpdeyKPWFbx7697wHCcAqj5p+BrduoU9/7HBykEgqK0uu1YkZKoTsZ0= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=fastmail.fm header.i=@fastmail.fm header.b=4EJejGOe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b=AfZlsyfT header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=fastmail.fm; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=vic.thacker@fastmail.fm smtp.helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=fastmail.fm header.i=@fastmail.fm header.b=4EJejGOe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b=AfZlsyfT header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=fastmail.fm; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=64.147.123.153 (wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=vic.thacker@fastmail.fm smtp.helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=pass policy.xms= Co1BZhmAj6ITVt5QSaceR7Tq5UfWFNkBLURIQGgIaz14lAkXoUrsRtItMzIwFFRgFqe9tLBuHfHwpk4c3nKG3IXSQmrb3b9GZp3Fp5z_N0c011Q25dhe_AbdHjZnD678B2qG9k02FmULGw; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com policy.ptr=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=fastmail.fm policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: in1-smtp.messagingengine.com,in2-smtp.messagingengine.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=fastmail.fm policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: in1-smtp.messagingengine.com,in2-smtp.messagingengine.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=-100 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help :list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s= dkim-1; t=1715571993; x=1715658393; bh=kHD/2xqnlI/AkX11tUuSbFYYV bRLMmUkLmch7fWCiag=; b=M9BX2r9T0VUWpEeqqc4So113U8u92NnJKWg9GS7U+ h4VkbGuY4uMKrxM4Dch++oYG23Hwp7zYNXVfBDqVHm8E+VD6zCc7ozL7vyNx3HiA wASGiXzD0dahHVkOf8r9HI4x/GPU9xDbTSqIXms/nWlaZoz6BT9E/uwzj3KvXc8Q I8= Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0A1187EA23 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from vic.thacker@fastmail.fm) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id DF970DE5858; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:18 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1715571978; b=t9hAh6zjr8VeG6YFmPry1Vy54a5kvBNdvb70CTPPphWm2CU5iq DJA37G+9iPFYvdX1j0SQmDVKxS3WE0PXGGn35p0XOXn0VF+9HlDfUmKIKc2pI3+W iOk+IMyi1mTSD5Z5NKyoplH2giXfBiK2leT/76O9hiGPlZDO1e46fPkY739TP99L BjNxndiyG3lLPpdVKF9BYz5qipa91G5mW+3uKW3XEeEvualvX799VTR9iWWznAAn REUdC372Yr1tq6Q7J3Spw8XB1w/ip8XGODCWb0TvsJov795SgSO3OXmkUOWK/bbc 1zWLNWvdMd2I09ahJxh+D5hQhuezbZ0eCeUA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references :date:from:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= arcseal; t=1715571978; bh=0u0UiuzjaQmmWmPHzYYehdbDPpnxj7sVxKEDkV MZ8wo=; b=Y6gTw24YeQijJqLzI9Nz107TE3N8+NwsW/kXFe7Athv68ya7OmMbbN rTl4c/ydjhZuMqEC2pmPFUOjP7Dr2ORcEmC04t4ziWzDJqFOWFZYbiHdey5bzVCX AaUK/Q4B4lmia8jT0VBFOhwcZuOsYz+V+UlKWbTGFLrx64TsClbFzt7pwvRMc4jf 5pi9EY+NYiIvMic8gCYVyWB8lGDVuTyejQdeQqHcydCoBoS/cHBTTUHehc6eIsp0 mFAvIf04dBhGu54Sp8fFJRyxnerEBnbosSQGmtm3TIEa1uouqn9zH9IKUXw4Ktvg 6LVlo4WSnj+a+1MMDRvxLcCDd9XA6dUA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=fastmail.fm header.i=@fastmail.fm header.b=4EJejGOe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b=AfZlsyfT header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=fastmail.fm; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=64.147.123.153 (wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=vic.thacker@fastmail.fm smtp.helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=pass policy.xms= Co1BZhmAj6ITVt5QSaceR7Tq5UfWFNkBLURIQGgIaz14lAkXoUrsRtItMzIwFFRgFqe9tLBuHfHwpk4c3nKG3IXSQmrb3b9GZp3Fp5z_N0c011Q25dhe_AbdHjZnD678B2qG9k02FmULGw; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com policy.ptr=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=fastmail.fm policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: in1-smtp.messagingengine.com,in2-smtp.messagingengine.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=fastmail.fm policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: in1-smtp.messagingengine.com,in2-smtp.messagingengine.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=-100 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvdegfedgjeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnh htshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqhertderreej necuhfhrohhmpehvihgtrdhthhgrtghkvghrsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmnecuggftrf grthhtvghrnhephfekkedvuefftdetvdetkedufeehvdfhueeiieektdfffeeiffeiveek keehkefgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehtohhpihgtsghogidrtghomhenucfkphepieegrdduge ejrdduvdefrdduheefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgv thepieegrddugeejrdduvdefrdduheefpdhhvghlohepfihfhhhighhhvddqshhmthhprd hmvghsshgrghhinhhgvghnghhinhgvrdgtohhmpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoehvihgtrdht hhgrtghkvghrsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmqedpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepuddprhgtph htthhopeeolehfrghnsheslehfrghnshdrnhgvtheq X-ME-VSScore: -100 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (fastmail.fm: Sender is authorized to use 'vic.thacker@fastmail.fm' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:spf.messagingengine.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx0.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="vic.thacker@fastmail.fm"; helo=wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com; client-ip=64.147.123.153 Received: from wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wfhigh2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from vic.thacker@fastmail.fm) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailfhigh.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8031800120 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap51 ([10.202.2.101]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:16 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvdegfedgjeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpehvihgt rdhthhgrtghkvghrsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfekke dvuefftdetvdetkedufeehvdfhueeiieektdfffeeiffeiveekkeehkefgnecuffhomhgr ihhnpehtohhpihgtsghogidrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehvihgtrdhthhgrtghkvghrsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i12e44095:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2C612B6008F; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:46:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-455-g0aad06e44-fm-20240509.001-g0aad06e4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 12:45:23 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5dfb420a-10db-11ef-81be-dc7f028c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NZWU2Nzc1YTRiMjM5ZjhjZDBkYzU3?= =?UTF-8?B?MjY0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mee6775a4b239f8cd0dc57264:1:47c-OEt6eojiyzmcu11Y2qQ7USENLsz1QdRMp9HLrNE The approach is effective in open source projects when there are leaders wh= o excel in communication, provide a clear vision, and prioritize objectives= . Its effectiveness diminishes in the absence of strong communication and p= lanning. Clear expectations generally facilitate easier collaboration and s= ustained engagement. However, I am not referring to the 2% of individuals w= ho engage only if it aligns with their own ideas. Prima donnas will act ind= ependently regardless, but for the majority who seek a constructive environ= ment, like myself, establishing a structured system or model is beneficial. Competence levels vary within the community, and any system necessitates kn= owledge transfer. This can be achieved through mentorship or onboarding spo= nsorship programs. The onboarding process involves several stages: 1. Not knowing what you don't know, where clear direction is essential. 2. Knowing that you don't know, where coaching is necessary. 3. Knowing and performing tasks with conscious effort, where occasional cor= rection may be required. 4. Performing tasks instinctively, where little to no correction is needed. There seems to be an implicit expectation that contributors should be at st= age four, but many in the 9fans community may not yet be at this level. Whi= le I'm not an expert, my initial experiences with Plan 9 were enriched by s= everal mentors who were willing to guide me and others; but in today's envi= ronment that might be a big ask, so you might be right. Vic On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 10:32, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: > I don't think this approach has ever worked in > the open source world -- it always starts with > someone building something useful. The vision > and goal is defined by the work being done. > > After something useful is built, people start > to join in and contribute. > > After enough people join in, it makes sense to > have more organization. > > Quoth vester.thacker@fastmail.fm: >> The complexity of communication in this medium often necessitates detail= ed discussions. You highlighted the need for additional personnel to manag= e the workload (e.g. do the work). From my perspective, this requires a we= ll-defined vision, clear objectives, and a prioritized list of deliverables= to align efforts effectively. Currently, it seems the role of product man= agers is collectively held, though it's unclear who exactly is responsible.= Typically, a team of two or more individuals would focus on these deliver= ables. In past projects, I've seen the use of a project board to keep ever= yone updated on tasks=E2=80=94an approach known as "information radiator" i= n project management. I'm open to other methods if you had something diffe= rent in mind that I may have overlooked. If you are considering a meritocr= acy, I would recommend caution. Experience has shown that what we truly ne= ed is increased collaboration and unity, rather than a system that could po= tentially encourage competition and division. I apologize if my message is= obtuse, I am trying to keep this message concise, I can expound more for c= larity. I hope my explanation helps.=20 >>=20 >> Vic >>=20 >>=20 >> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 03:36, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >> > that's not what I said. >> > >> > Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: >> >> I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before fo= rming a team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that encompa= sses multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals and values t= hat resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating open chan= nels for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that everyone feels = valued and heard? This approach could foster a more cooperative and inclusi= ve environment. >> >>=20 >> >> Vic >> >>=20 >> >>=20 >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, plan6@room3420.net wrote: >> >> > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try >> >> > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is >> >> > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. >> >> > or >> >> > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach >> >> > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mee677= 5a4b239f8cd0dc57264 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription