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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="lassi@lassi.io"; helo=relay9-d.mail.gandi.net; client-ip=217.70.183.199 Received: from relay9-d.mail.gandi.net (relay9-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.199]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 06:22:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lassi@lassi.io) Received: (Authenticated sender: lassi@lassi.io) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC18AFF810 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:22:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 13:22:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.6.1 Subject: Re: [9fans] plan 9 and lisp Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: From: Lassi Kortela In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 99207234-97eb-11ed-b454-8810ad0564bc Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UN2IwYWZiZWZiNTMxODliNi1NNjg2Yzg1Y2FmYjU5NTg5MGJiYjQ3?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjhkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M686c85cafb595890bbb47f8d:1:iSn1dU95jK1AnaLYEIA1z3nDmmvm_yZCDUZSB-qGfsI > i=E2=80=99m wondering what 9fans think about lisp, specifically scheme. Cat-v.org has given a nod to Scheme. Chibi-Scheme has run on Plan 9. A useful Scheme interpreter can be written in about 10k lines of clear C=20 code. > they=E2=80=99re both the powerful synthesis of simple ideas. i don=E2=80= =99t see any=20 > mention of it as it compares to 9, but they don=E2=80=99t seem incompatib= le.=20 > personally i think they compliment each other in nice ways. Plan 9 uses files as the organizing metaphor. Lisp uses objects.=20 (Lispers don't care too much about organizing objects into class=20 hierarchies; we care about them in the Smalltalk sense, "something you=20 can call to do a job". Every function is an object in Lisp.) https://github.com/mntmn/interim is a hobby OS that tries to combine the=20 two. I haven't looked at it in detail but the idea may be "too much of a=20 good thing": the two metaphors cover some of the same ground, so there=20 is redundancy between them. The Lisp instinct is to represent system=20 services as objects, not files. > i don=E2=80=99t have any interest in emacs, i don=E2=80=99t even know wha= t it is. nor=20 > clojure or any of that. Emacs =3D A very imperfect Lisp machine emulator written in C. The code=20 written for Emacs mostly deals with text editing, but the Lisp system is=20 actually broad enough for general-purpose programming. Clojure =3D Java. That may be all 9fans want to know :-) > i=E2=80=99m talking about lisp being able to manipulate the structure of = the=20 > program with tools that are built into the language. Lisp tends to focus on macros and other S-expression transformations,=20 i.e. metaprogramming at as a batch job (at compile time, etc.) Smalltalk focuses on reflection, i.e. metaprogramming at run time. Same idea, but Smalltalk is much more dynamic. Most Lisp systems can do=20 a lot of runtime reflection but it's not customary to reach for it as=20 the first tool of choice. This is more of a cultural matter than a=20 technical issue, though culture determines which aspects of the=20 implementations are the most polished and comprehensive. Scheme tends to be less dynamic than Lisp generally. This is also a=20 matter of culture, not an intrinsic technical issue. Schemers constantly=20 talk about efficiency. Almost all Lisp dialects use dynamic typing. Almost all Lisp=20 implementations (of any dialect) support interactive development, and=20 this is the normal way to write Lisp. Other languages known for metaprogramming: Forth, Rebol. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7b0afbefb53189b6-M686c8= 5cafb595890bbb47f8d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription