[9fans] smacme

[9fans] smacme

[Ronald G Minnich]

The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!

Acme is very changeable, and nothing in this world is perfect, and it's
just one piece of the puzzle. Write some code!

Rio is cool but not the be-all and end-all of everything. Write some code!

ron

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good day.

Am Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:13:41 -0600 schrieb Ronald G Minnich
<rminnich@lanl.gov>:

> The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
> list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
> cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
> tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!

We stopped acting like this a year ago. Maybe you should stop just reading
9fans.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] smacme

[quanstro]

so, show us the code.  i don't see your contrib directory on sources.

also, you might consider looking sincerely up in a dictionary.  it is not
quite fit your tone.

- erik

On Fri Jul  7 09:30:15 CDT 2006, 20h@r-36.net wrote:
> Good day.
>
> Am Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:13:41 -0600 schrieb Ronald G Minnich
> <rminnich@lanl.gov>:
>
> > The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
> > list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
> > cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
> > tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!
>
> We stopped acting like this a year ago. Maybe you should stop just reading
> 9fans.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christoph

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Ronald G Minnich]

Christoph Lohmann wrote:

> We stopped acting like this a year ago. Maybe you should stop just reading
> 9fans.

dang, I guess I'm just out of touch.

ron

Re: [9fans] smacme

[David Leimbach]

Well I wasn't kidding about it when I said that's pretty neat.  I did
go in and look at the changes you made.  I *WAS* kidding about making
^K and ^Y access snarf.

I don't know how many times I've been frustrated using acme when I
only needed to go up or down one line and had to reach for the mouse
to do so.  I do, however, like that acme scrolls with the arrow keys
so this change of yours seems no worse to me than the day I realized
^U deleted everything behind the insertion point on the line, or that
ESC selected my most recently typed text.

Different people like different shortcuts and being able to customize
one's editor is a pretty cool thing.  (probably why I've always
preferred emacs to vi in unix-land).

One thing smacme did do was make me more curious about the way the
acme filesystem (/mnt/acme stuff) works and for the first time I took
a deeper look into how all that stuff behaves.

So really it's not all that bad now is it? ;-)

And your comment about people who don't write any code is probably
mostly on.  I did an experiment once, tried to add a feature to rio..
turns out if I had a better grasp of the the filesystem concept I
didn't even need to write that code.

I even documented the experience (on my mordor page).  I just seem to
have to write less significant code on Plan 9 for the simple little
tasks I've wanted to achieve there.

And one more thing, abaco-test is working swimmingly well considering
it's age.  I'm pretty darn impressed with that whole project.

Dave

On 7/7/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
> list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
> cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
> tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!
>
> Acme is very changeable, and nothing in this world is perfect, and it's
> just one piece of the puzzle. Write some code!
>
> Rio is cool but not the be-all and end-all of everything. Write some code!
>
> ron
>

Re: [9fans] smacme

[jmk]

What should I read instead or as well as?

On Fri Jul  7 10:30:39 EDT 2006, 20h@r-36.net wrote:
> Good day.
>
> Am Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:13:41 -0600 schrieb Ronald G Minnich
> <rminnich@lanl.gov>:
>
> > The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
> > list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
> > cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
> > tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!
>
> We stopped acting like this a year ago. Maybe you should stop just reading
> 9fans.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christoph

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Ronald G Minnich]

jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> What should I read instead or as well as?


jim! The secret channel, of course! Have you forgotten the secret
password again?

ron

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Latchesar Ionkov]

Secret password? I thought it was a PIN number...

On Jul 7, 2006, at 8:54 AM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>> What should I read instead or as well as?
>
>
> jim! The secret channel, of course! Have you forgotten the secret
> password again?
>
> ron

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Ronald G Minnich]

Latchesar Ionkov wrote:
> Secret password? I thought it was a PIN number...

Visible on the LCD display?

ron

Re: Re: [9fans] smacme

[andrey mirtchovski]

Now, I would just like to point out that this thread is displaying a
distinct tendency to become silly. Now, nobody likes a good laugh more
than I do... except, perhaps my wife... and some of her friends. Oh,
yes, and Captain Johnson. Come to think of it, most people like a good
laugh more than I do, but that's beside the point! I'm warning this
thread not to get silly again! Right!

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Gabriel Diaz]

Hello,

There was a list plan9-devel iirc, created for the people who write
code. But it didn't work.

If you need help from community to make something (port gcc, port R,
port that chemistry simulator, whatever), start a project, lead it,
motivate the people to work with you, organize the whole project, help
others to help you, and probably you will get something. That will
happen or not, but it will not start itself.

Saying "ey guys i would love to have XXX or YYY" doesn't work. Start
doing them, and try to get people involved. Best example, Russ
plan9ports. He got a couple of people involved, may be they help much,
or nothing, may be some comments are useful, some not,

Waiting to see what people is doing, or saying that people is not
doing something, leads to nowhere.

Time for work, family, etc is not excuse for doing nothing, its excuse
for going slow. Best sample, snmpfs. Its a program that a talented
programmer will do in days. I have worked on it along all this year,
and it is evolving. . . slow. The time spent on it, much less that you
can think speaking about year-magnitude, but that's the time i have.

You want R? go for it, it took three years to get it, well, you will
got it. If you can't wait, you know where to get it :).

Some people in this list call plan9 a "research os", and think it
cannot be used to work with in their bussines, so they don't spend
anything in doing things, just stay around doing what you described,
nothing :)

Actually looking at /n/sources/contrib you can see that something is
being done all the time. There are few people, they are little things,
but there are. Speaking bad about them or see them as 'nothing' is not
correct.

i will remain doing the tools i need, and everyone is invited to
coment, modify, fix or do constructive rants about those tools, or
just do nothing :)

I don't need to rant about others,like, "why isn't jmk doing the
driver i need? why russ isn't fixing the bug i found? why rob isn't
writing code for plan9? why sape doesn't look at that usbaudio driver
i need? why nobody in this community is doing anything 'productive'?"
those are all stupid questions that are being asked here over and over
again in some differents ways. a non-sense.

what will you do? port gcc? go for it! but don't say nobody is doing anything.

thats my opinion, if there is someone interested.

slds.

gabi


On 7/7/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
> list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
> cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
> tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!
>
> Acme is very changeable, and nothing in this world is perfect, and it's
> just one piece of the puzzle. Write some code!
>
> Rio is cool but not the be-all and end-all of everything. Write some code!
>
> ron
>

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] smacme

[David Leimbach]

I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired
of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed-up in this country
with being sick and tired.... I'm certainly not, but I'm sick and
tired of being told that I am.

- Salvation Fuzz from Matching Tie & Handkerchief

On 7/7/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now, I would just like to point out that this thread is displaying a
> distinct tendency to become silly. Now, nobody likes a good laugh more
> than I do... except, perhaps my wife... and some of her friends. Oh,
> yes, and Captain Johnson. Come to think of it, most people like a good
> laugh more than I do, but that's beside the point! I'm warning this
> thread not to get silly again! Right!
>

Re: [9fans] smacme

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> so, show us the code.  i don't see your contrib directory on sources.
Christoph has his code under
/n/sources/contrib/zwansch/

Why does this matter ?

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Federico Benavento]

Hola,

this is the 2nd time I post this on the list:
"9fs sources; cd /n/sources/contrib/zwansch/; ls"
to be more clear, that's Christoph contrib dir

On 7/7/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> so, show us the code.  i don't see your contrib directory on sources.
>
> also, you might consider looking sincerely up in a dictionary.  it is not
> quite fit your tone.
>
> - erik
>
> On Fri Jul  7 09:30:15 CDT 2006, 20h@r-36.net wrote:
> > Good day.
> >
> > Am Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:13:41 -0600 schrieb Ronald G Minnich
> > <rminnich@lanl.gov>:
> >
> > > The point of this little exercise is simple: lotsa people talk on this
> > > list, but few write code. You don't like it, do something better and
> > > cooler. But stop acting like this source code is engraved on two
> > > tablets, five commandments per tablet. Write some code!
> >
> > We stopped acting like this a year ago. Maybe you should stop just reading
> > 9fans.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Christoph
>


--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] smacme

[Brantley Coile]

> Hola,
>
> this is the 2nd time I post this on the list:
> "9fs sources; cd /n/sources/contrib/zwansch/; ls"
> to be more clear, that's Christoph contrib dir

Anyone who write an AoE driver is ok in my book.

Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[csant]

> And one more thing, abaco-test is working swimmingly well considering
> it's age.  I'm pretty darn impressed with that whole project.

Yep, I have to agree. Abaco has its flaws, but it is a really impressive
project. What are the plans WRT its development? How actively is it worked
on? What are the next planned steps? How far away is javascript and CSS
implementation?

*curious*

/c

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 849 bytes --]

Hola,

to answer your questions:

I'm the only one writing code for it and I do it at my leisure time.
js and css are really _big_ tasks, I started a css parser, but didn't finish it
and libhtml needs to be updated and made more DOM compatible.

the plan is adding all those features, but things appear along the way,
like when I added "charset=" support, some russian guy said something like
"hey, abaco doesn't render this page well", so I did it.

all that said, yesterday I spent 14 hours trying to get the table layout right
(with css in mind) with no luck. but I have the ignorance required to keep trying.
now that I have a free month, I'll see what I with it.

thanks

Federico G. Benavento

PS0: yes, my english is crap
PS1: any kind of help will be appreciated, that includes code and doesn't exclude
just thoughts.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3470 bytes --]

From: csant <csant@csant.info>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:53:47 +0200
Message-ID: <op.tcb9rxlkd84skq@fiore>

> And one more thing, abaco-test is working swimmingly well considering
> it's age.  I'm pretty darn impressed with that whole project.

Yep, I have to agree. Abaco has its flaws, but it is a really impressive
project. What are the plans WRT its development? How actively is it worked
on? What are the next planned steps? How far away is javascript and CSS
implementation?

*curious*

/c

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[csant]

Hola,

> js and css are really _big_ tasks, I started a css parser,
> but didn't finish it and libhtml needs to be updated and
> made more DOM compatible.
IIANM a port of the spidermonkey js engine is yours - are you planning to
integrate it?

> but I have the ignorance required to keep trying.
> now that I have a free month, I'll see what I with it.
:)

> PS0: yes, my english is crap
If you wouldn't point it out, one wouldn't even notice ;)

> PS1: any kind of help will be appreciated, that includescode and doesn't
> exclude just thoughts.
I am afraid I'd not be very useful at contributing code. But is there a
(systematic?) way you keep track of bugs? There'd be stuff I'd let you
know of, but wouldn't like to waste both our time with known issues on
your list.

Just a silly question - how do I view source of a visited page? (I am sure
there is a simple answer to that, but I couldn't work it out for myself)

/c

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

hey.  this is getting pretty good.  you've solved both the problems i had
with the earlier version.  plus flash doesn't work so there aren't many ads!

a caching webfs might help, too?

- erik

On Fri Jul  7 18:04:13 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> Hola,
>
> to answer your questions:
>
> I'm the only one writing code for it and I do it at my leisure time.
> js and css are really _big_ tasks, I started a css parser, but didn't finish it
> and libhtml needs to be updated and made more DOM compatible.
>
> the plan is adding all those features, but things appear along the way,
> like when I added "charset=" support, some russian guy said something like
> "hey, abaco doesn't render this page well", so I did it.
>
> all that said, yesterday I spent 14 hours trying to get the table layout right
> (with css in mind) with no luck. but I have the ignorance required to keep trying.
> now that I have a free month, I'll see what I with it.
>
> thanks
>
> Federico G. Benavento
>
> PS0: yes, my english is crap
> PS1: any kind of help will be appreciated, that includes code and doesn't exclude
> just thoughts.
>

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Steve Simon]

> a caching webfs might help, too?

uriel wrote one, in his contrib directory.

-Steve

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico Benavento]

On 7/7/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> hey.  this is getting pretty good.  you've solved both the problems i had
> with the earlier version.  plus flash doesn't work so there aren't many ads!
>
:)

> a caching webfs might help, too?
>
uriel added some caching to webfs, it kinda works, but it needs
some work. it's on his contrib dir.

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico Benavento]

> IIANM a port of the spidermonkey js engine is yours - are you planning to
> integrate it?
>
yes, that's why I ported it.

> I am afraid I'd not be very useful at contributing code. But is there a
> (systematic?) way you keep track of bugs?
no, I try to fix bugs as they appear, people (steve and uriel actually)
repport them and I try to fix them, that's the way it works, if there is a
better one just let me know.

> There'd be stuff I'd let you
> know of, but wouldn't like to waste both our time with known issues on
> your list.
>
for known issues see the NOTES file and of course the layout problems
are obvious.

> Just a silly question - how do I view source of a visited page? (I am sure
> there is a simple answer to that, but I couldn't work it out for myself)

this is what I do: snarf the url, then hget http://pasted-url.com
|plumb -i -d edit

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

he corner cases make caching difficult.  (dialup reduces the apparent difficulty.)
i'm not sure the current webfs design lends itself well to caching.  i'm not sure
what uriel did, but perhaps a fourth tld, cache, should be added.  this would make
it easier to manipulate the state with normal tools.

hopefully i can find some time to work on that.

what do you think about having an errors window so i can find out about all the
animated gifs that aren't playing. ;-)

- erik

On Fri Jul  7 19:29:23 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> On 7/7/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > hey.  this is getting pretty good.  you've solved both the problems i had
> > with the earlier version.  plus flash doesn't work so there aren't many ads!
> >
> :)
>
> > a caching webfs might help, too?
> >
> uriel added some caching to webfs, it kinda works, but it needs
> some work. it's on his contrib dir.
>
> --
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico Benavento]

On 7/7/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> what do you think about having an errors window so i can find out about all the
> animated gifs that aren't playing. ;-)
>
I don't think so, but you could redirect stderr to /dev/null if that
bothers you ;)

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

news.com.com had some bad urls that required me to hide or resize the window
often otherwise the top lines would be unreadable.  discarding the errors doesn't
seem like the right solution; something along the lines of acme does.

- erik

On Fri Jul  7 20:09:01 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> On 7/7/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > what do you think about having an errors window so i can find out about all the
> > animated gifs that aren't playing. ;-)
> >
> I don't think so, but you could redirect stderr to /dev/null if that
> bothers you ;)
>
> --
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[uriel]

Sieg Heil!

> he corner cases make caching difficult.  (dialup reduces the apparent difficulty.)
> i'm not sure the current webfs design lends itself well to caching.  i'm not sure
> what uriel did, but perhaps a fourth tld, cache, should be added.  this would make
> it easier to manipulate the state with normal tools.

What I did was just a hack to see if it was possible to make caching
fit into the current webfs with minimal changes.  It seems to be
possible but currently it only does the most simplistic form of
caching (ignoring http headers and other such things), but making it
more sophisticated should not be hard.

And yes, webfs needs to be seriously reworked, it seems that it was
never really finished and the design was done without any real client
available so it makes various assumptions about what it can be done
inside webfs that actually have to be done in the browser itself due
to various web braindamages.

At a top secret DP9IK meeting we decided that the best path of action
is to move as much webfs functionality into libs that clients/browsers
could take advantage of directly rather than try to fit everything
awkwardly into the webfs interface.  A first step towards that was to
move all the URL parsing code into liburl so abaco could use it
instead of its own broken internal URL parsing code.  Note: to compile
my version of webfs you will need to install /n/sources/contrib/uriel/liburl/
first.

My version of webfs also includes some other small fixes and
simplifications.  I tried to add HTTP/1.1 but for some unknown reason
that broke access to google. Did I mention how much I hate Google?
When I think about making webfs/abaco load gmail my head spins.


> hopefully i can find some time to work on that.  
> 
> what do you think about having an errors window so i can find out about all the
> animated gifs that aren't playing. ;-)

Your shell doesn't have a way to redirect file descriptors?

Insincerely

uriel - Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids


> 
> - erik
> 
> On Fri Jul  7 19:29:23 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 7/7/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> > hey.  this is getting pretty good.  you've solved both the problems i had
>> > with the earlier version.  plus flash doesn't work so there aren't many ads!
>> >
>> :)
>> 
>> > a caching webfs might help, too?
>> >
>> uriel added some caching to webfs, it kinda works, but it needs
>> some work. it's on his contrib dir.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Ronald G Minnich]

Federico G. Benavento wrote:

> PS0: yes, my english is crap

doesn't matter, abaco is fantastic.

ron

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[uriel]

Sieg Heil!

> Federico G. Benavento wrote:
> 
>> PS0: yes, my english is crap
> 
> doesn't matter, abaco is fantastic.

You obviously don't use abaco very much.

Sincerely

uriel - Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Ronald G Minnich]

uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> Sieg Heil!
> 
> 
>>Federico G. Benavento wrote:
>>
>>
>>>PS0: yes, my english is crap
>>
>>doesn't matter, abaco is fantastic.
> 
> 
> You obviously don't use abaco very much.
> 
> Sincerely
> 
> uriel - Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids
> 

actually, I use it, and I have look at how much code it takes to do what 
it does, and I think it's fantastic.

ron

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

> news.com.com had some bad urls that required me to hide or resize the window
> often otherwise the top lines would be unreadable.
> discarding the errors doesn't
> seem like the right solution; something along the lines of acme does.
>

hmm... ok, the thing is that there shouldn't be errors at all,
a quick "grep warning /sys/src/cmd/acme/*.c" tells me that
the errors reported there are more user related than bug related ones.
I said /dev/null in the former mail, but it could be /sys/log/abaco
 or whatever, I use: "plumb client window -dx 900 -dy 700 abaco >[2]/tmp/abaco.log"
as I'm always putting some debugging prints in it.

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Sascha Retzki]

> Hola,
>

hai2u

> PS1: any kind of help will be appreciated, that includes code and doesn't exclude
> just thoughts.

- It would be very usefull to be able to mark text in web-pages, snarf that,
paste the snarf-buffer in <input>-like text fields, etc. I know, I know,
I have that strange feeling that that is hard to do ;-)


I can just repeat what has been said, I was and still am (and probably will be)
very impressed by abaco, not only because I know it is a one-man-show.
Thumbs up. I work in a web-agency, I know what you have to deal with.

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

> hai2u
>
hai2u2

>> PS1: any kind of help will be appreciated, that includes code and doesn't exclude
>> just thoughts.
>
> - It would be very usefull to be able to mark text in web-pages, snarf that,
> paste the snarf-buffer in <input>-like text fields, etc. I know, I know,
> I have that strange feeling that that is hard to do ;-)
>
you can do that, but of course doesn't work as expected, or in other words
it's broken, the same happens with chording.

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

huh?  if one trys to close a dirty window in acme, the +Errors
window displays a warning.  likewise, if there are write errors
on files or whatever.

these are the errors i get from news.com.com:

write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=6327&s=501815&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e144AE80BAA83923/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=6327&s=501815&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=6453&s=670915&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=&rqid=/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=6453&s=670915&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=8040&s=672357&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=200&rqid=01c17-ad-e144AE80BAA897DC/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=8040&s=672357&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1
gif: decode <stdin> failed: ReadGIF: can't recognize format ��
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=672007&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=7261&s=672007&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=673149&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=7261&s=673149&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=671541&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=7261&s=671541&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=
[...]

i didn't post them before because i hadn't put any effort into figuring out what the
problem was.

- erik

On Fri Jul  7 23:48:26 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> > news.com.com had some bad urls that required me to hide or resize the window
> > often otherwise the top lines would be unreadable.  
> > discarding the errors doesn't
> > seem like the right solution; something along the lines of acme does.
> > 
> 
> hmm... ok, the thing is that there shouldn't be errors at all, 
> a quick "grep warning /sys/src/cmd/acme/*.c" tells me that
> the errors reported there are more user related than bug related ones.
> I said /dev/null in the former mail, but it could be /sys/log/abaco
>  or whatever, I use: "plumb client window -dx 900 -dy 700 abaco >[2]/tmp/abaco.log"
> as I'm always putting some debugging prints in it.
> 
> -- 
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]

those are no errors, are bugs, in this case are libhtml bugs,
read the NOTES file and apply the change to libhtml.

Federico G. Benavento

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 6650 bytes --]

From: quanstro@quanstro.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 07:26:57 -0500
Message-ID: <f0fb84750a7e710bfbd9245aa720e186@quanstro.net>

huh?  if one trys to close a dirty window in acme, the +Errors
window displays a warning.  likewise, if there are write errors
on files or whatever.

these are the errors i get from news.com.com:

write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=6327&s=501815&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e144AE80BAA83923/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=6327&s=501815&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=6453&s=670915&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=&rqid=/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=6453&s=670915&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=8040&s=672357&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=200&rqid=01c17-ad-e144AE80BAA897DC/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=8040&s=672357&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1
gif: decode <stdin> failed: ReadGIF: can't recognize format ��
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=672007&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=7261&s=672007&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=673149&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=7261&s=673149&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=
write: url http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=671541&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif: parseurl: malformed absolute path: /adlog/i/r=7261&s=671541&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=
[...]

i didn't post them before because i hadn't put any effort into figuring out what the
problem was.

- erik

On Fri Jul  7 23:48:26 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> > news.com.com had some bad urls that required me to hide or resize the window
> > often otherwise the top lines would be unreadable.  
> > discarding the errors doesn't
> > seem like the right solution; something along the lines of acme does.
> > 
> 
> hmm... ok, the thing is that there shouldn't be errors at all, 
> a quick "grep warning /sys/src/cmd/acme/*.c" tells me that
> the errors reported there are more user related than bug related ones.
> I said /dev/null in the former mail, but it could be /sys/log/abaco
>  or whatever, I use: "plumb client window -dx 900 -dy 700 abaco >[2]/tmp/abaco.log"
> as I'm always putting some debugging prints in it.
> 
> -- 
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

regardless, they are printed and the user many be interested.

btw.  your diagnosis of the problem is not correct.  the problem in 
the url is the "π".  although the standard says you can't, 
opera (and maybe other browsers) use utf8- and not idn-
encoded urls.

the offending url is:

//adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=670913&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif

REabspath :=  /\/([\/;]|([a-zA-Z0-9\-_.!~*'():@&=+$,]|(%[0-9a-fA-F][0-9a-fA-F])))*
	(converted to acme/sam escapes)
matches
//adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=670913&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1

unfortunately, there is no way to do something like 
[[:ALPHARUNE:]] to fix the problem.

- erik

On Sat Jul  8 08:03:11 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> those are no errors, are bugs, in this case are libhtml bugs,
> read the NOTES file and apply the change to libhtml.
> 
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

> regardless, they are printed and the user many be interested.
> 
thanks for the interest

> btw.  your diagnosis of the problem is not correct.  the problem in 
> the url is the "π".  although the standard says you can't, 
> opera (and maybe other browsers) use utf8- and not idn-
> encoded urls.
> 
> the offending url is:
> 
> //adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=670913&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif
> 

did you apply the change?
according to russ href's cannot contain '&' they should have "&" instead,
but this is not the rule out there. libhtml code sees '&' and doesn't wait for the ';'
so "&sp" becomes ' ', with my change "&sp" is still "&sp", but "&sp;" gets translated
into ' '.

<img src="http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=6327&s=501815&t=2006.07.08.13.27.07&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1&pid=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e144AE80BAADF4B3/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif" HEIGHT="0" WIDTH="0" alt=""/>

see how "&pi" becomes 'π'
I don't get this errors because I did apply the change to lex.c

Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

On Sat Jul  8 08:32:32 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> > the offending url is:
> > 
> > //adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=670913&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif
> > 
> 
> did you apply the change?

what change?

> according to russ href's cannot contain '&' they should have "&" instead,
> but this is not the rule out there. libhtml code sees '&' and doesn't wait for the ';'
> so "&sp" becomes ' ', with my change "&sp" is still "&sp", but "&sp;" gets translated
> into ' '.
> 

hrefs *MAY* contain &.  & is the argument sepertaor for cgi scripts.  if you have
an "&" in an argument, you need to url-escape it -- that is a much different escaping
mechanism than for html.  for example "&" would be encoded as "%26".

it is curious that they are not using a ? to seperate the base url from the arguments.

i used curl on my linux machine to inspect the text sent from the news.com.com
server.  the url really does have a π in it.  try it out. also, html
entities like &sp; or π should never be interpreted within urls.

- erik

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

i did something wrong.  you're right &pid is getting translated as π.  totally wrong,
since entities occur in html NOT urls. but anyway, what is your fix?

- erik

On Sat Jul  8 08:45:32 CDT 2006, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> On Sat Jul  8 08:32:32 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> > > the offending url is:
> > > 
> > > //adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=670913&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif
> > > 
> > 
> > did you apply the change?
> 
> what change?
> 
> > according to russ href's cannot contain '&' they should have "&" instead,
> > but this is not the rule out there. libhtml code sees '&' and doesn't wait for the ';'
> > so "&sp" becomes ' ', with my change "&sp" is still "&sp", but "&sp;" gets translated
> > into ' '.
> > 
> 
> hrefs *MAY* contain &.  & is the argument sepertaor for cgi scripts.  if you have
> an "&" in an argument, you need to url-escape it -- that is a much different escaping
> mechanism than for html.  for example "&" would be encoded as "%26".
> 
> it is curious that they are not using a ? to seperate the base url from the arguments.
> 
> i used curl on my linux machine to inspect the text sent from the news.com.com
> server.  the url really does have a π in it.  try it out. also, html
> entities like &sp; or π should never be interpreted within urls.
> 
> - erik

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 129 bytes --]

I told you  it's in the NOTES file.

lotte% tail -1 /usr/fgb/src/abaco/NOTES
	   /sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1258	if(c == ';' ) {

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4611 bytes --]

From: quanstro@quanstro.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 08:38:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1095b0bca7bc7b4dddf1c4693b07fa03@quanstro.net>

i did something wrong.  you're right &pid is getting translated as &pi;.  totally wrong,
since entities occur in html NOT urls. but anyway, what is your fix?

- erik

On Sat Jul  8 08:45:32 CDT 2006, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> On Sat Jul  8 08:32:32 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:
> > > the offending url is:
> > > 
> > > //adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7261&s=670913&x-fid=27&t=2006.07.08.12.32.41&o=1:&h=cn&p=2&b=5&l=en_US&site=3&pt=2001&nd=1πd=&cid=0&pp=100&rqid=00c17-ad-e444AE8131A6EF99/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/dotclear.gif
> > > 
> > 
> > did you apply the change?
> 
> what change?
> 
> > according to russ href's cannot contain '&' they should have "&amp;" instead,
> > but this is not the rule out there. libhtml code sees '&' and doesn't wait for the ';'
> > so "&sp" becomes ' ', with my change "&sp" is still "&sp", but "&sp;" gets translated
> > into ' '.
> > 
> 
> hrefs *MAY* contain &.  & is the argument sepertaor for cgi scripts.  if you have
> an "&" in an argument, you need to url-escape it -- that is a much different escaping
> mechanism than for html.  for example "&" would be encoded as "%26".
> 
> it is curious that they are not using a ? to seperate the base url from the arguments.
> 
> i used curl on my linux machine to inspect the text sent from the news.com.com
> server.  the url really does have a π in it.  try it out. also, html
> entities like &sp; or &pi; should never be interpreted within urls.
> 
> - erik

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

i took a hard look at the w3c html 4.01 specs.  accordingly a uri is
considerd a cname within html.  a cname can contain entities unless it
is a script or a style.  thus a uri in a href may contain entities.
in fact, they do recommend
	<a href="http://example.com?x=1&y=2">
be encoded
	<a href="http://example.com?x=y&amp;y=2">
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#non-ascii-chars §
B.2.2.) this isn't what i've seen in practice, though.

i took the approach of limiting the characters in references to
exactly what occurs in the w3c's list --- "[A-Za-z0-9]+", to allow
characters not in that list to terminate the entitiy (as
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/charset.html#entities indicates we
should) and finally to not try to prefix-match entities.  the comment
at the top of the file says that the prefix-matching was done for
buggy html.  i wish i knew more about the problem the comments
reference.

if this seems a fruitful way to go, i'll submit a patch.

- erik

; diff -c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/libhtml/lex.c lex.c
/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1245,1251 - lex.c:1245,1251
  			c = getchar(ts);
  			if(c < 0)
  				break;
- 			if(ISNAMCHAR(c)) {
+ 			if(c < 256 && (isalpha(c) || isdigit(c))) {
  				if(k < SMALLBUFSIZE-1)
  					buf[k++] = c;
  			}
/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1255,1263 - lex.c:1255,1263
  				break;
  			}
  		}
- 		if(c >= 0) {
+ 		if(c >= 256 || !(isalpha(c) || isdigit(c))) {
  			fnd = _lookup(chartab, NCHARTAB, buf, k, &ans);
- 			if(!fnd) {
+ 			if(0 && !fnd) {
  				// Try prefixes of s
  				if(c == ';' || c == '\n' || c == '\r')
  					ungetchar(ts, c);

On Sat Jul  8 08:55:26 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> I told you  it's in the NOTES file.
> 
> lotte% tail -1 /usr/fgb/src/abaco/NOTES 
> 	   /sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1258	if(c == ';' ) {

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

did you recompile libhtml, webfs and abaco and then restart webfs?
it does work for me on http://news.com.com.  the only errors i get now are:

 8.out http://news.com.com
gif: warning: only writing first image in 16-image GIF <stdin>
gif: decode <stdin> failed: ReadGIF: can't recognize format ��
; 

should i try another url?

- erik

On Sat Jul  8 12:46:08 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> eric, I don't know if you noticed it, but your diff doesn't solve
> the problem.
> 

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 81 bytes --]

eric, I don't know if you noticed it, but your diff doesn't solve
the problem.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4939 bytes --]

From: quanstro@quanstro.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 11:56:55 -0500
Message-ID: <9fcab0ae3e21bfca348bbe83462896ff@quanstro.net>

i took a hard look at the w3c html 4.01 specs.  accordingly a uri is
considerd a cname within html.  a cname can contain entities unless it
is a script or a style.  thus a uri in a href may contain entities.
in fact, they do recommend
	<a href="http://example.com?x=1&y=2">
be encoded
	<a href="http://example.com?x=y&amp;y=2">
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#non-ascii-chars §
B.2.2.) this isn't what i've seen in practice, though.

i took the approach of limiting the characters in references to
exactly what occurs in the w3c's list --- "[A-Za-z0-9]+", to allow
characters not in that list to terminate the entitiy (as
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/charset.html#entities indicates we
should) and finally to not try to prefix-match entities.  the comment
at the top of the file says that the prefix-matching was done for
buggy html.  i wish i knew more about the problem the comments
reference.

if this seems a fruitful way to go, i'll submit a patch.

- erik

; diff -c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/libhtml/lex.c lex.c
/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1245,1251 - lex.c:1245,1251
  			c = getchar(ts);
  			if(c < 0)
  				break;
- 			if(ISNAMCHAR(c)) {
+ 			if(c < 256 && (isalpha(c) || isdigit(c))) {
  				if(k < SMALLBUFSIZE-1)
  					buf[k++] = c;
  			}
/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1255,1263 - lex.c:1255,1263
  				break;
  			}
  		}
- 		if(c >= 0) {
+ 		if(c >= 256 || !(isalpha(c) || isdigit(c))) {
  			fnd = _lookup(chartab, NCHARTAB, buf, k, &ans);
- 			if(!fnd) {
+ 			if(0 && !fnd) {
  				// Try prefixes of s
  				if(c == ';' || c == '\n' || c == '\r')
  					ungetchar(ts, c);

On Sat Jul  8 08:55:26 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> I told you  it's in the NOTES file.
> 
> lotte% tail -1 /usr/fgb/src/abaco/NOTES 
> 	   /sys/src/libhtml/lex.c:1258	if(c == ';' ) {

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 595 bytes --]

ok, this was my time to be wrong, I had to remove /386/lib/libhtml.a
and then rebuild it in order to get it working.

I still prefer my way :)

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/charset.html#entities :
"
Note.
In SGML, it is possible to eliminate the final ";" after a character reference in some cases (e.g., at a line break or immediately
before a tag). In other circumstances it may not be eliminated (e.g., in the middle of a word). We strongly suggest
using the ";" in all cases to avoid problems with user agents that require this character to be present. "

Federico G. Benavento

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3562 bytes --]

From: quanstro@quanstro.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 12:39:28 -0500
Message-ID: <d434dc26f3df33a0cdae031418370230@quanstro.net>

did you recompile libhtml, webfs and abaco and then restart webfs?
it does work for me on http://news.com.com.  the only errors i get now are:

 8.out http://news.com.com
gif: warning: only writing first image in 16-image GIF <stdin>
gif: decode <stdin> failed: ReadGIF: can't recognize format ��
; 

should i try another url?

- erik

On Sat Jul  8 12:46:08 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> eric, I don't know if you noticed it, but your diff doesn't solve
> the problem.
> 

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

sure.  you're fix is simplier.

but my final code is simplier.  ☺ and it doesn't have the prefix code, which seems
sure to be a bug.

i think it's important to remove the prefix code (i didn't actually remove it.
i if(0)'d it.)  that was key to &pid being interpreted as &pi.  and, unfortunately,
to prevent side-effects from removing the prefix code, ti thought it was important
to make sure that any unexpected character in an entity reference terminated 
the name.  i'm guessing that was the original reason for the prefix code.

- erik

p.s. your png bug is interesting.  it doesn't happen on p9p. (the image formats
are handled differently.)  it doesn't happen with png -v.  somehow there is an
endian problem RGB → BGR.

p.p.s. when the w3c "strongly suggests" that usually means that all the major browsers
do things in defiance of the suggestion. ;-)

On Sat Jul  8 13:13:02 CDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> ok, this was my time to be wrong, I had to remove /386/lib/libhtml.a
> and then rebuild it in order to get it working.
> 
> I still prefer my way :)
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/charset.html#entities :
> "
> Note.
> In SGML, it is possible to eliminate the final ";" after a character reference in some cases (e.g., at a line break or immediately
> before a tag). In other circumstances it may not be eliminated (e.g., in the middle of a word). We strongly suggest
> using the ";" in all cases to avoid problems with user agents that require this character to be present. "
> 
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

that may be true, but here are two websites that don't follow the standard
	http://www.washingtonpost.com/
	http://news.com.com/
	http://www.google.com/

that's three of the first four websites i tried (slashdot did the right thing.)
to me, it's irrevalent what the standard says if a good percentage of important
websites don't work.

- erik

On Sat Jul  8 14:40:24 CDT 2006, mattmobile@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > i took a hard look at the w3c html 4.01 specs.  accordingly a uri is
> > considerd a cname within html.  a cname can contain entities unless it
> > is a script or a style.  thus a uri in a href may contain entities.
> > in fact, they do recommend
> > 	<a href="http://example.com?x=1&y=2">
> > be encoded
> > 	<a href="http://example.com?x=y&amp;y=2">
> > (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#non-ascii-chars §
> > B.2.2.) this isn't what i've seen in practice, though.
> 
> 
> You're not looking hard enough, you'll find &amp; wherever it is used in my websites, and anyone else that writes valid HTML. You can find pleny of such websites after browsing the W3 HTML validator mailing list archives =)
> 
> btw. it is more than a recommendation, an unescaped "&" renders your html invalid.
> 
> Finding invalid HTML on the web, however, is all too easy try :
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/
> http://www.bell-labs.com/   - which even has invalid utf8 !

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[mattmobile]

> i took a hard look at the w3c html 4.01 specs.  accordingly a uri is
> considerd a cname within html.  a cname can contain entities unless it
> is a script or a style.  thus a uri in a href may contain entities.
> in fact, they do recommend
> 	<a href="http://example.com?x=1&y=2">
> be encoded
> 	<a href="http://example.com?x=y&amp;y=2">
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#non-ascii-chars §
> B.2.2.) this isn't what i've seen in practice, though.


You're not looking hard enough, you'll find &amp; wherever it is used in my websites, and anyone else that writes valid HTML. You can find pleny of such websites after browsing the W3 HTML validator mailing list archives =)

btw. it is more than a recommendation, an unescaped "&" renders your html invalid.

Finding invalid HTML on the web, however, is all too easy try :
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/
http://www.bell-labs.com/   - which even has invalid utf8 !

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[mattmobile]

> that's three of the first four websites i tried (slashdot did the right thing.)
> to me, it's irrevalent what the standard says if a good percentage of important
> websites don't work.

I'm not disagreeing with that, you have to take what you're given and that means dealing with invalid tag soup.

IMHO, you should emit HTML errors to stderr. And choose what to do next, which would usually be copying I.E.'s broken HTML rendering.

Netscape used to display a blank (grey) page for invalid HTML, I.E. rendered broken HTML, so people would say that Netscape was broken because of this ! (though it was broken in other ways)


XHTML will save us, validity is built in

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/
This page is not Valid XHTML 1.1!

oh, maybe not then

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fplan9.bell-labs.com%2Fwiki%2Fplan9%2Fplan_9_wiki%2F

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[quanstro]

if XHTML will save us, i'll take my chances in hell.

☺ erik

On Sat Jul  8 16:20:17 CDT 2006, mattmobile@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> XHTML will save us, validity is built in
> 
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/
> This page is not Valid XHTML 1.1!
> 
> oh, maybe not then
> 
> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fplan9.bell-labs.com%2Fwiki%2Fplan9%2Fplan_9_wiki%2F

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[Sascha Retzki]

>
> XHTML will save us, validity is built in
>
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/
> This page is not Valid XHTML 1.1!
>
> oh, maybe not then

I recall the pages on http://plan9.bell-labs.com/ were build rather with compatibility with mothra, abaco and links in mind (or rather, all available browsers on Plan9 plus the mainstream browsers).

At least I think so, Russ and uriel can comment on that further.

Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)

[mattmobile]

> I recall the pages on http://plan9.bell-labs.com/ were build rather with compatibility with mothra, abaco and links in mind (or rather, all available browsers on Plan9 plus the mainstream browsers).

The Wiki uses XHTML, there are NO XHTML browsers, they don't exist.

[9fans] Re: Abaco

[csant]

> there are NO XHTML browsers, they don't exist.

Huh? Care to explain? :)
/c

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[mattmobile]

> > there are NO XHTML browsers, they don't exist.
> Huh? Care to explain? :)

I might have overstepped that one =)

http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml

I can't even work out what the wiki is trying to be

The headers & metas conflict

Content-Type: text/html

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />


The actual content is invalid whichever you pretend it is.

Invalid in XHTML (quotes should be ")
<div class='body'>

invalid in HTML (or rather, it isn't what the author thinks it is)
<a name="WHAT_IS_PLAN_9_?" />

short tags in XHTML and HTML don't do the same thing
<br />
in HTML it should render as
<br>&gt;

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[quanstro]

whatever xhtml may be, it's way too complicated

http://www.w3.org/TR/xlink/ creates a much more complicated version of a
href for xhtml.  it looks like it creates a relational database to me.

grep grail /sys/games/lib/fortunes | sed 's:gcc:xhtml:g
		s:compilers:hypertext languages:g
		s:forsyth:apologies to &:g'

- erik
On Sun Jul  9 05:02:23 CDT 2006, mattmobile@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> > > there are NO XHTML browsers, they don't exist.
> > Huh? Care to explain? :)
>
> I might have overstepped that one =)
>
> http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
>
> I can't even work out what the wiki is trying to be
>
> The headers & metas conflict
>
> Content-Type: text/html
>
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
[...]

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[Charles Forsyth]

> whatever xhtml may be, it's way too complicated

the w3c universe is basically batty, and like
many obsessives, they cannot stop themselves

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 672 bytes --]

Holy crap, another capital X language that is completely useless.
I understand not being able to stop yourself when something is fun,
but when it is simply drudgery... what then?

On 7/10/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
>
> > whatever xhtml may be, it's way too complicated
>
> the w3c universe is basically batty, and like
> many obsessives, they cannot stop themselves
>
>


--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 987 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[Charles Forsyth]

> I understand not being able to stop yourself when something is fun,
> but when it is simply drudgery... what then?

i don't understand it either.  each time i implement one small chunk of that
big set of angular, irregular syntax, i end up feeling fairly miserable,
with no feeling of accomplishment.   the WS-* specifications are amazing:
they present whole pages full of xml, often to do something trivial (eg, establish
or extend a lease).  miserable.

still, you're stuck having to deal with more than a little of it if
you're doing a `browser' (which makes it sound bucolic!).

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[Caco]

Well put!

On Jul 10, 2006, at 6:12 AM, Charles Forsyth wrote:

>> whatever xhtml may be, it's way too complicated
>
> the w3c universe is basically batty, and like
> many obsessives, they cannot stop themselves
>

Re: [9fans] Re: Abaco

[quanstro]

i've talked and worked with some of them in the distant past.  the ones i knew
were very excited about what they are doing and conviced they were blazing a new trail.

you tend to get the "but this one goes to eleven" arguments.  as in "this way is simplier".
retort: "but this works with our xml parser."

i even worked with (against?) a text search engine that returned byte-offsets in sgml.
the good news was there were no endian considerations.  the bad news was everything else.


- erik

On Mon Jul 10 04:34:55 CDT 2006, forsyth@terzarima.net wrote:
> > I understand not being able to stop yourself when something is fun,
> > but when it is simply drudgery... what then?
>
> i don't understand it either.  each time i implement one small chunk of that
> big set of angular, irregular syntax, i end up feeling fairly miserable,
> with no feeling of accomplishment.   the WS-* specifications are amazing:
> they present whole pages full of xml, often to do something trivial (eg, establish
> or extend a lease).  miserable.
>
> still, you're stuck having to deal with more than a little of it if
> you're doing a `browser' (which makes it sound bucolic!).
>

mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[Richard Miller]

> I recall the pages on http://plan9.bell-labs.com/ were build rather with compatibility with mothra

Actually, the changes to the plan9 website earlier this year made it
incompatible with mothra.  With a great effort of will I have restrained
myself from complaining about this in 9fans.  Instead I've updated mothra
with support for the requisite features: charset=utf-8, more &entities,
and .png images.

Just in case anyone besides me is still using mothra, the new version
is now in /n/sources/extra/mothra.

-- Richard

Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[erik quanstrom]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 997 bytes --]

On Tue Jul 11 05:38:54 CDT 2006, 9fans@hamnavoe.com wrote:
> > I recall the pages on http://plan9.bell-labs.com/ were build rather with compatibility with mothra
> 
> Actually, the changes to the plan9 website earlier this year made it
> incompatible with mothra.  With a great effort of will I have restrained
> myself from complaining about this in 9fans.  

just admit it.  you'd rather code than complain. ☺

i've attached some diffs that allow .bz2 support.
there's also some (misguided?) cleanup in html.h.

> Instead I've updated mothra
> with support for the requisite features: charset=utf-8, more &entities,
> and .png images.
> 
> Just in case anyone besides me is still using mothra, the new version
> is now in /n/sources/extra/mothra.

thanks.  i still use it, but much less since the new version of abaco is working so well.
i'm even able to get wikipedia to work with a few changes to libhtml. (i've submitted
one patch and am collecting a second.)

- erik

[-- Attachment #2: mothra-diff --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 3458 bytes --]

diff -c /n/sources/extra/mothra//filetype.c ./filetype.c
/n/sources/extra/mothra//filetype.c:22,36 - ./filetype.c:22,36
  	".gif",		GIF,
  	".jpe",		JPEG,
  	".jpg",		JPEG,
- 	".jpeg",	JPEG,
- 	".png",	PNG,
+ 	".jpeg",   	JPEG,
  	".pic",		PIC,
+ 	".png",		PNG,
  	".au",		AUDIO,
  	".tif",		TIFF,
- 	".tiff",	TIFF,
+ 	".tiff",     	TIFF,
  	".xbm",		XBM,
  	".txt",		PLAIN,
- 	".text",	PLAIN,
+ 	".text",    	PLAIN,
  	".ai",		POSTSCRIPT,
  	".eps",		POSTSCRIPT,
  	".ps",		POSTSCRIPT,
/n/sources/extra/mothra//filetype.c:51,56 - ./filetype.c:51,57
  	int len, kind, restore;
  	char *s;
  	len=strlen(name);
+
  	if(len>=2 && cistrcmp(name+len-2, ".Z")==0){
  		kind=COMPRESS;
  		len-=2;
/n/sources/extra/mothra//filetype.c:59,64 - ./filetype.c:60,69
  		kind=GUNZIP;
  		len-=3;
  	}
+ 	else if(len>=4 && cistrcmp(name+len-3, ".bz2")==0){
+ 		kind=BZIP2;
+ 		len-=4;
+ 	}
  	else
  		kind=0;
  	restore=name[len];
/n/sources/extra/mothra//filetype.c:99,104 - ./filetype.c:104,111
  	"compress",	COMPRESS,
  	"x-gzip",	GUNZIP,
  	"gzip",		GUNZIP,
+ 	"bzip2",		BZIP2,
+ 	"x-bzip",		BZIP2,
  	0,		0
  };
  int encoding2type(char *s){
diff -c /n/sources/extra/mothra//getpix.c ./getpix.c
/n/sources/extra/mothra//getpix.c:13,23 - ./getpix.c:13,23
  };
  Pix pix[NPIX];
  Pix *epix=pix;
- char *pixcmd[]={
+ char *pixcmd[CTYPEMASK+1]={
  [GIF]	"gif -9v",
  [JPEG]	"jpg -9v",
- [PNG]	"png -9v",
  [PIC]	"fb/3to1 /lib/fb/cmap/rgbv",
+ [PNG]	"png -9v",
  [TIFF]	"/sys/lib/mothra/tiffcvt",
  [XBM]	"fb/xbm2pic",
  };
/n/sources/extra/mothra//getpix.c:72,83 - ./getpix.c:72,78
  		}
  		return;
  	}
- 	if(url.type!=GIF
- 	&& url.type!=JPEG
- 	&& url.type!=PNG
- 	&& url.type!=PIC
- 	&& url.type!=TIFF
- 	&& url.type!=XBM){
+ 	if(pixcmd[CTYPEMASK & url.type] == 0){
  		werrstr("unknown image type");
  		goto Err;
  	}
Common subdirectories: /n/sources/extra/mothra//libpanel and ./libpanel
diff -c /n/sources/extra/mothra//mothra.h ./mothra.h
/n/sources/extra/mothra//mothra.h:52,84 - ./mothra.h:52,93
   * url reference types -- COMPRESS and GUNZIP are flags that can modify any other type
   * Changing these in a non-downward compatible way spoils cache entries
   */
- #define	GIF		1
- #define	HTML		2
- #define	JPEG		3
- #define	PIC		4
- #define	TIFF		5
- #define	AUDIO		6
- #define	PLAIN		7
- #define	XBM		8
- #define	POSTSCRIPT	9
- #define	FORWARD		10
- #define	PDF		11
- #define	SUFFIX		12
- #define ZIP		13	/* rm */
- #define PNG		14
- #define	COMPRESS	16
- #define	GUNZIP		32
- #define	COMPRESSION	(COMPRESS|GUNZIP)
+ enum {
+ 	GIF,
+ 	HTML,
+ 	JPEG,
+ 	PIC,
+ 	TIFF,
+ 	AUDIO,
+ 	PLAIN,
+ 	XBM,
+ 	POSTSCRIPT,
+ 	FORWARD,
+ 	PDF,
+ 	SUFFIX,
+ 	ZIP,			// rm
+ 	PNG,
+
+ 	CTYPEMASK	= 15,	// i.e. COMRESS-1
+ 	COMPRESS	= 16,
+ 	GUNZIP	= 32,
+ 	BZIP2		= 64,
+ 	COMPRESSION	= (COMPRESS|GUNZIP|BZIP2),
+ };
+
  /*
   * url access types
   */
- #define	HTTP		1
- #define	FTP		2
- #define	FILE		3
- #define	TELNET		4
- #define	MAILTO		5
- #define	EXEC		6
- #define	GOPHER		7
+ enum{
+ 	HTTP		= 1,
+ 	FTP,
+ 	FILE,
+ 	TELNET,
+ 	MAILTO,
+ 	EXEC,
+ 	GOPHER,
+ };
+
  /*
   *  authentication types
   */
/n/sources/extra/mothra//mothra.h:122,130 - ./mothra.h:131,133
  uchar cmap[256*3];
  RGB map[256];
  char version[];
- #ifndef brazil
- #	define	RFREND	0
- #endif
- #ifndef	nil
- #define	nil	0
- #endif

Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[csant]

>> Just in case anyone besides me is still using mothra, the new version
>> is now in /n/sources/extra/mothra.
> thanks.  i still use it, but much less since the new version of abaco is
> working so well.
What wins my sympathy for Abaco is that it feels much more integrated with
the environment, UI-wise.

What is the status of the other Plan 9 browsers? Links? i? Are there any
others? What browsers do people on Plan 9 use? Or do most people use
something on a Linux/UNIX box via VNC?

Personally I am using Abaco when on Plan 9, since it feels like the most
"plan 9-ish" browser - and snarfing to and from rio and acme is possible.
/c

Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[Richard Miller]

> just admit it.  you'd rather code than complain. ☺

Actually, I quite enjoy both.

> i've attached some diffs that allow .bz2 support.
> there's also some (misguided?) cleanup in html.h.

Thanks - I'll incorporate this into my next update (soon).

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[cej]

Folks,
Just my comment:
Isn't web a misconcept, and a stranger in plan9 ??
Shouldn't we put more efffort into tru 9 development?
Just IMHO, as usually,
G'day,
++pac


-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of csant
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:33 AM
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

>> Just in case anyone besides me is still using mothra, the new version
>> is now in /n/sources/extra/mothra.
> thanks.  i still use it, but much less since the new version of abaco is  
> working so well.
What wins my sympathy for Abaco is that it feels much more integrated with  
the environment, UI-wise.

What is the status of the other Plan 9 browsers? Links? i? Are there any  
others? What browsers do people on Plan 9 use? Or do most people use  
something on a Linux/UNIX box via VNC?

Personally I am using Abaco when on Plan 9, since it feels like the most  
"plan 9-ish" browser - and snarfing to and from rio and acme is possible.
/c

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[uriel]

Sieg Heil!

> Folks,
> Just my comment:
> Isn't web a misconcept, and a stranger in plan9 ??

The web is a disease, but the same could be said of SMTP, PC hardware
and many other things that Plan 9 has to deal with.

> Shouldn't we put more efffort into tru 9 development?

If you are trying to tell people what they should work on (without
considerable amounts of cash changing hands) you could as well try to
change the orbit of the moon with your thoughts alone. If you want to
see something done there is only one way: do it.

Of course, if anyone is looking for suggestions, exploding nukes at
the Googleplex and at the next W3C meeting would be a good start.

That could be followed by setting up gas chambers for anyone left
related to WEB 2.0 or AJAX.

Oh, well, one can always dream...

uriel - Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids


P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
problem for some people.


> Just IMHO, as usually,
> G'day,
> ++pac
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of csant
> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:33 AM
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))
> 
>>> Just in case anyone besides me is still using mothra, the new version
>>> is now in /n/sources/extra/mothra.
>> thanks.  i still use it, but much less since the new version of abaco is  
>> working so well.
> What wins my sympathy for Abaco is that it feels much more integrated with  
> the environment, UI-wise.
> 
> What is the status of the other Plan 9 browsers? Links? i? Are there any  
> others? What browsers do people on Plan 9 use? Or do most people use  
> something on a Linux/UNIX box via VNC?
> 
> Personally I am using Abaco when on Plan 9, since it feels like the most  
> "plan 9-ish" browser - and snarfing to and from rio and acme is possible.
> /c

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[erik quanstrom]

that may be, but lack of a reasonable browser has forced me to keep
switching between plan 9 and linux.  is there anything in particular
you suggest.

- erik

On Mon Jul 17 00:09:25 CDT 2006, cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:
> Folks,
> Just my comment:
> Isn't web a misconcept, and a stranger in plan9 ??
> Shouldn't we put more efffort into tru 9 development?
> Just IMHO, as usually,
> G'day,
> ++pac

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Jul 17 02:12:08 CDT 2006, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
>
> P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
> never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
> problem for some people.
>

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[cej]

Yep. Agree 100%.
++pac

-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of uriel@cat-v.org
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:11 AM
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

Sieg Heil!

> Folks,
> Just my comment:
> Isn't web a misconcept, and a stranger in plan9 ??

The web is a disease, but the same could be said of SMTP, PC hardware
and many other things that Plan 9 has to deal with.

> Shouldn't we put more efffort into tru 9 development?

If you are trying to tell people what they should work on (without
considerable amounts of cash changing hands) you could as well try to
change the orbit of the moon with your thoughts alone. If you want to
see something done there is only one way: do it.

Of course, if anyone is looking for suggestions, exploding nukes at
the Googleplex and at the next W3C meeting would be a good start.

That could be followed by setting up gas chambers for anyone left
related to WEB 2.0 or AJAX.

Oh, well, one can always dream...

uriel - Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids


P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
problem for some people.


> Just IMHO, as usually,
> G'day,
> ++pac
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of csant
> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:33 AM
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))
> 
>>> Just in case anyone besides me is still using mothra, the new version
>>> is now in /n/sources/extra/mothra.
>> thanks.  i still use it, but much less since the new version of abaco is  
>> working so well.
> What wins my sympathy for Abaco is that it feels much more integrated with  
> the environment, UI-wise.
> 
> What is the status of the other Plan 9 browsers? Links? i? Are there any  
> others? What browsers do people on Plan 9 use? Or do most people use  
> something on a Linux/UNIX box via VNC?
> 
> Personally I am using Abaco when on Plan 9, since it feels like the most  
> "plan 9-ish" browser - and snarfing to and from rio and acme is possible.
> /c

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[erik quanstrom]

according to meatloaf, n-1 outta n ain't bad.

- erik

On Mon Jul 17 03:15:49 CDT 2006, cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:
> 	Me too. Even to windoze... Maybe im a dreamer... i thought we could 	build a parallel world... w/o [html|xml] java, c++, python, 	perl......... [blah, blah, blah, add your favourite]
> 	I'm a self-made-man, certainly a non-techie, however....

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[erik quanstrom]

when you're apologizing as a /preemptive strike/, i wonder if
you're trying to offend.

- erik

p.s. no need to reply.  i've already considered you're possible responses.

On Mon Jul 17 02:12:08 CDT 2006, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
>
> P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
> never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
> problem for some people.

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[cej]

>that may be, but lack of a reasonable browser has forced me to keep
>switching between plan 9 and linux.  

	Me too. Even to windoze... Maybe im a dreamer... i thought we could 	build a parallel world... w/o [html|xml] java, c++, python, 	perl......... [blah, blah, blah, add your favourite]
	I'm a self-made-man, certainly a non-techie, however....

>is there anything in particular
>you suggest.

>- erik

	Happy day,
	++pac.

RE: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

[jmk]

No need to apologise, we're sure you're working on it
and your humour will be much improved in Version 2.0.

On Mon Jul 17 02:12:08 CDT 2006, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
>
> P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
> never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
> problem for some people.
>