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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="willow@howhill.com"; helo=srv1.howhill.co.uk; client-ip=81.187.135.98 Received: from srv1.howhill.co.uk (howhill.co.uk [81.187.135.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 3 Oct 2024 19:56:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from willow@howhill.com) Received: from [192.168.1.223] (Ellychnia-corrusca.howhill.co.uk [192.168.1.223]) (Authenticated sender: willow) by srv1.howhill.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5BF7279112 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 4 Oct 2024 00:56:26 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 srv1.howhill.co.uk 5BF7279112 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 00:56:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang) To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <17279870850.AB7f82132.49492@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Language: en-GB From: Willow Liquorice In-Reply-To: <17279870850.AB7f82132.49492@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.76 / 20.00]; BAYES_HAM(-3.00)[99.99%]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(-0.67)[-0.67435433837532]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 5BF7279112 X-Rspamd-Server: srv1.howhill.co.uk Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1fb37d4a-81e3-11ef-b6d9-fd58ea8b8e43 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWQ1N2Q0MDgxMWE4ZWM1ZC1NMDFjYmEzNDg4ZDhkNTQ0NzMyYjVk?= =?UTF-8?B?YmNhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M01cba3488d8d544732b5dbca:1:YmTnes5dlJqJMBxNvSnHAWbBVw6XUHX__sOnGJ4sKKA I must admit that my rather non-committal email on V is largely down to=20 my low appetite for years-old programming language drama. Wikipedia is=20 also far from comprehensive. Nothing is quite there yet as a "new language" for Plan 9. Rust is *too*=20 abstract and is quite baroque (see: custom allocators, the saga of const=20 generics, async function colouring), and leans on LLVM (which is its own=20 C++-shaped can of worms). Of the languages already available, I think Zig is the closest to the=20 spirit of `Language Ideas`_, but LLVM libraries and tooling are still=20 needed for its full feature set (including its big selling point:=20 importing C code),[1]_ and it leans more towards the imperative than the=20 functional. D is horrendously mismanaged. Nim and V are really just Zig,=20 but worse. There also a reluctance (from at least one 9front dev) to vendor Zig,=20 because it's an external project with its own dependencies. Presumably=20 similar reluctance would apply to other languages. Still, I expect=20 vendoring Zig will get easier, as I shall explain. Moving away from LLVM is `one of the core team's projects`_ at the=20 moment, and I want to try integrating the Plan 9 toolchain with Zig's C=20 backend (unless that has been tried already). Once `this issue`_ is=20 closed, and provided the C backend behaves, I think the desirable=20 missing features could be implemented by getting the Zig build system to=20 use the native C toolchain. As for release-mode optimisations, one of the core devs has `a=20 broad-strokes idea`_ for a new compiler backend, which has a basis in=20 recent CS research. I don't know whether that particular piece of=20 vapourware will condense, but I suspect its IR would be expressive=20 enough to do borrow checking as an analysis pass, which could=20 universalise Rust's unique safety features. This is my opinion on new programming languages for Plan 9. - Willow .. _Language Ideas: https://wiki.9front.org/language-ideas .. _one of the core team's projects:=20 https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/16270 .. _this issue: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/20630 .. _a broad-strokes idea: https://github.com/vezel-dev/graf .. [1]=20 https://github.com/ziglang/zig?tab=3Dreadme-ov-file#building-from-source-wi= thout-llvm On 03/10/2024 21:24, dpe@squizzler.co.uk wrote: > I am confused by the divisive views on V. On one hand people who seem to= =20 > know their onions speak well of it. @Willow provides helpful reasons why= =20 > the project might have started inauspiciously, whereas by contrast @Noam= =20 > I feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence. Perhaps for a=20 > fledgeling language all publicity is good publicity? Certainly I would=20 > expect a "controversies" section on the wikipedia page if it was that=20 > toxic as some seem to think. >=20 > As for "vibes", I think @Kurmakes an interesting point on the importance= =20 > of emotional factors. There seems to be an appetite for a new language=20 > within Plan 9 as evidenced by the wiki page linked in OP. HarveyOS=20 > jumped first (with Rust), but whilst rewriting everything in rust is=20 > trendy (has the right vibes), r9 hardly set the world on fire. The=20 > adoption of Rust in projects such as Linux may well be driven by=20 > emotion, and in a bloated codebase like Linux it seems to have been a=20 > failure. Could the experience of r9 - despite the vastly more manageable= =20 > code base of Plan 9 - suggest it is not the language for Plan9's future? >=20 > Looking beyond Rust, could languages like Zig (good call, @Willow) and=20 > maybe V be better candidates? > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions=20 > + participants=20 > + delivery=C2=A0options= =20 > Permalink=20 > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9d57d40811a8ec5d-M01cba= 3488d8d544732b5dbca Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription